Array ( [0] =>
[1] => Ralph Sproul - Thu 15 Nov 2007 02:37:53 #0 [2] =>

hydraulics & expectations [3] =>

Mills, The basic formula for hydraulics is 1 electric HP = 1 gal/min @ 1500 psi.

[4] => The force/work of a 6" cylinder = pie x r sqd. = 3.12 x 9 = 28 sq inches x 2500 max pressure from a pump = 35 ton

[5] => The force/work of a 4" cylinder = 2 x 2 x 3.12 = 12.5 x 2500 psi = 31200 divided by 2000 = about 16 ton.

[6] => Now consider a 16 gallon per minute pump(rated at 3600 rpm gas motor) .........with a 10 hp gas motor figure you've got 8 useful hp (as compared to electric as they bog instead of eat power to stay at speed). If you could push 16 gallons in volume with 8 hp going back to our original base rule of hydraulics you'd only have the ability to do half that pressure (or 750 psi) Seeing as the force/work pressures above were figured at 2500 psi........this tells us something.

[7] => You need to run a two stage pump. This will run at 750 psi while pushing 16 gallons - but be cut to 4 gpm at 2500 psi as the smaller section of the pump causes the pressure to rise - but the volume is cut by 1/4 (or 4 gpm) on a 16 gpm pump.

[8] => Figure your piston speed by the gallons moved at 16 gpm and 4 gpm and this will give you the correct operating speeds in inches per second for the high speed (to and from) and pressing speed (when the pump is engaged in the smaller section).

[9] => ....and yes, you must remove the rod diameter from the cylinder area on the return force (if you pulling with it)........but your statement of faster with less tonage was correct.

[10] => Now, if I were to build the ultimate log splitter (to deal with oil prices properly) and a forging press........make the splitter beam pivot with a flat plate to go on the ground or against for pressing, and your piston/ram has the wedge (but unbolts to a carriage with a "reciever socket" that will take hydraulic pressing tools for the ultimate press/splitter........or at least that's how I'd do it next round.

[11] => Ralph [12] =>

[13] => Fred - Thu 15 Nov 2007 06:40:20 #0 [14] =>

Site [15] =>

This site just gets better and better. Thanks to you Darrell. Fred [16] =>

[17] => Charlie Spademan - Thu 15 Nov 2007 08:44:23 #0 [18] =>

[19] =>

Thanks for setting up my password Darrell, and hello All. Darrell, sorry about my confusion; I hadn't realized that you had completely stopped mirroring Forgemagic, when I left my recent post over there....NOW I understand why I was seeing posts here that I wasn't over there. As my ex-sister-in-law used to say "light dawns on a dim bulb"
[20] => Charlie [21] =>

[22] => Ellen - Thu 15 Nov 2007 09:52:27 #0 [23] =>

Road Rockets [24] =>

Well, I've ridden my bike a lot of miles including cross country for a power hammer class last summer.

[25] => I've always thought you should never ride faster than your Guardian Angel can fly. Things happen fast at high speeds. I don't mind running 80 to 90 on the super slab so the trucks don't run over me but slow down everywhere else. Especially around towns, kids, etc. Thats just common courtesy and safety. [26] =>

[27] => Mills - Thu 15 Nov 2007 10:26:35 #0 [28] =>

[29] =>

Alright Ralph! It is nice to know that I am on the right track. I knew there were some losses that needed to be addressed. And so you did.

[30] => By some more assumptions (1/2 gal/min @ 2500 psi) at full load then I see a ram speed of 1/6 in /second. In your experience is a nominal 16 ton press at that speed useful? What it comes down to is should I shelve this idea til I glom (technical term) onto a bigger power source or back off the tonnage even more to boost the loaded travel speed? I can see that some of what I hoped to attempt in the future will require a bigger press.
[31] => Thanks Ralph.

[32] => What I really need to do is study hydraulics some more. Anyone have a good source for information?

[33] => Wow Sandpile what an image! [34] =>

[35] => Mills - Thu 15 Nov 2007 10:29:30 #0 [36] =>

[37] =>

And Hollis that is a nice acorn and leaf. I have attempted to do a leaf that way but failed, what did you do, if I may ask? [38] =>

[39] => Ellen - Thu 15 Nov 2007 12:58:43 #0 [40] =>

Gallery [41] =>

Some beautiful work in there guys! Like the solid hammered railing, the acorn and oak leaf, cat tail fence, welding carts, and esp. the branding irons....grin!

[42] => Sandpile, we've had a few riders around here discover that their bike will fit underneath an elk just fine; of course the rider doesn't. Ouch! [43] =>

[44] => dloc - Thu 15 Nov 2007 13:12:31 #0 [45] =>

#last [46] =>

For those who have forgotten, if you put #last at the end of the URL for this site in your favorites list, it loads and takes you to the last post.

[47] => [48] =>

[49] => HW - Thu 15 Nov 2007 14:31:05 #0 [50] =>

[51] =>


[52] => You have to put the basic shape into the parent stock using a butcher or side set tool. The front of the leaf is pointed, the side fullers are perpendicular to the centerline on the back (stem side) with the angle facing forward. Once that foundation shape is there, you can pull the sides out with a round-end punch or a very blunt fuller. I hope that makes senses...Hollis [53] =>

[54] => R.Smith - Thu 15 Nov 2007 15:59:14 #0 [55] =>

[56] =>

Does this thing work? Testing..testing..123 [57] =>

[58] => R.Smith - Thu 15 Nov 2007 15:59:48 #0 [59] =>

[60] =>

Well..I guess it do! [61] =>

[62] => Marc - Thu 15 Nov 2007 16:42:08 #0 [63] =>

Folks craft schools [64] =>

I'm looking into a different kind of vacation for next year. A few of my family and friends like to take vacations together. In the past it's been touristy things like Las Vegas, and I want to look into something a little different for next year.

[65] => So what I'm thinking is a week-long "retreat" at a craft school, like John C Campbell. There are six of us, who will probably each want something different from the other. John C Campbell has that kind of program. I also found the Ozark Folk School. Are there any others? It would be especially nice if it were a day's driving from NH/VT.
[66] => [67] =>

[68] => Daryl - Thu 15 Nov 2007 17:25:20 #0 [69] =>

Marc [70] =>

I'm not sure what it is like but there is Haystack in Maine. I know a few people that have taught there, both Blacksmiths and Woodies. [71] =>

[72] => brucegodlesky - Thu 15 Nov 2007 17:48:27 #0 [73] =>

[74] =>

Marc, Touchstone in w Pennsylvania [75] =>

[76] => Bob S - Thu 15 Nov 2007 18:02:45 #0 [77] =>

Hollis leaf [78] =>

I like that leaf Hollis. And the acorn. Is it just the light that is giving them a brown finish or did you do something? What?

[79] => Thanks for the look. [80] =>

[81] => John N - Thu 15 Nov 2007 19:33:31 #0 [82] =>

Great Site - Nice work [83] =>

testing.. [84] =>

[85] => John N - Thu 15 Nov 2007 19:35:41 #0 [86] =>

Hello Folks [87] =>

its all looking great, and the work is nice,

[88] => Will chip in if I have anything of merit to say (might be next year then aye?) :) [89] =>

[90] => SGensh - Thu 15 Nov 2007 19:53:52 #0 [91] =>

Marc [92] =>

The wooden boat school in Brooklin Maine is only a short distance from Haystack also if one of your group has that interest. Haystack itself is in a beautiful location on Deer Isle. I've been to an open studio event there but never taken any classes. [93] =>

[94] => John Larson - Thu 15 Nov 2007 19:54:45 #0 [95] =>

[96] =>

Made a one-piece 4140 tomahawk today for a client. The morning just flew by. Surprise to me, I did much of the forming on the anvil with a hand hammer. Decided I want another spring fullering tool for the power hammer that mimicks the flat hand hammer and the round anvil horn. The guys at the tavern tonight were ooing and awing. It took me five tries over a week or so. Went on a shopping trip for the next hammer's pumbling--somewhere a bit under $150 for nonferrous intake manifolding and black pipe exhausting. Pieced together this stuff when I got back to the third world. Looks like I got everything. Then machined the ball connector that I use between the cylinder and the tup. Usual stuff, except I proved I can shorten things up a bit. Whereas I formerly increased a hammer's height 4" when going from a 10" cylinder to a 12" (2" more daylight and 2" more cylinder body height), it looks like I may be able to reduce that to 2" by playing with the connector design. The cylinders for two hammers were waiting for me when I got home. Some weight there, and also about $1150 in cost. [97] =>

[98] => HW - Thu 15 Nov 2007 19:55:57 #0 [99] =>

[100] =>


[101] => No, it's the light - both pieces were simply power brushed with a wire wheel. They are still bare and not coated with any protectant.

[102] => Acorn started out with 3/16"x1" flat stock and the leaf began life as 3/16"x3/4". [103] =>

[104] => John Fee - Fri 16 Nov 2007 00:43:31 #0 [105] =>

JC Campbell [106] =>

Marc- Although it's quite a drive, the John C Campbell folk school will be WELL worth it. I've been there 7 times and have always had a great time. [107] =>

[108] => Fred - Fri 16 Nov 2007 02:27:46 #0 [109] =>

Marc [110] =>

Mark you might want to check out Cedar Lakes in Ripley WV Fred [111] =>

[112] => Ralph Sproul - Fri 16 Nov 2007 08:26:25 #0 [113] =>

hydraulics input [114] =>

Mills, One of the best books on hydraulics and forging presses is Batson's hydraulic press book he wrote for knife makers and forgers. I picked mine up from Norm Larson many years ago and it is written in understandable terms with some of the considerations like I've mentioned also noted. It's a flyer more than a book with paper cover and not too costly.

[115] => It delves into the option of making a standing C frame style press and the hydraulics which go behind it.

[116] => I have a 15 ton log splitter I bend pipe with and a 36 ton vertical C frame press that I do an awful lot on with the dies I've built over the years. I'd say anything worth building for forging should be a 24 tonner or up. When you start to get over 40-50 tons with a single piston (going to 7's and 8" sized cylinders you get lots of force - but need more power to pump 2500 psi pressure in a volume to fill and move that size press/ram for effectivness.

[117] => You should be aware that presses suck the heat out of the material and transfer it to the dies at an incredible rate that you've not been exposed to in hand hammering or running a power hammer.........very different animal. This means you need to do the work before the heat is all sucked out - or your trying to push cold material which basically only dents your dies. You can't use hardened dies as they'll temper out with the heat transfer in no time at all. Bulky/heavy tools are the norm for press work (think heat sink).

[118] => I see no reason you can't build a 24 -30 ton effective log splitter/press with your 10 hp motor. The trick is if you've got a 4 or 5" cylinder and a bunch of steel around to make it from - then the valve, pump, coupler, and lines/fittings are tolerable in cost. I also look for a large section of square or rectangular tubing (that is clean - not rusty) Weld two sections of plate on the ends and you've got a nice hydraulic tank with the addition of a few flange fittings easily aquired from McMaster. Putting a baffle in with holes in it can cut foaming - so does enlarging your return port on the tank to about 1 1/2" from the 3/4 line in a couple steps .....dropping the velocity of the returning oil cuts foaming and air swirls in the tank that can cavitate a pump.

[119] => I have a friend who is a retired power plant engineer. He cuts wood to keep in shape and the shape he's in for 72 is incredible. He has a log splitter that I saw and REALLY liked and thought it worth duplicating and making a few changes for the tangent of forging - but it was also a great unit that you could flip a "Lunker" into on the ground and have the wedge drive thru the log (against a backing plate) and then flip it up to do lighter wood - or use as a forging press in that same mode simply by changing the wedge out to a "receiver carriage".........there I go with Gazintas again!! :-)

[120] => I'll try to find a picture to post of it - I took about 10 pics and have collected about 90% of the stuff to build one this winter.

[121] => Ralph
[122] => [123] =>

[124] => Mills - Fri 16 Nov 2007 09:45:56 #0 [125] =>

[126] =>

thanks Ralph That heartens me. I CAN collect stuff but have learned to say no until I can see a project thru to completion. I wasn't going to chunk the motor but also wasn't going to scrounge more stuff for another Rube Goldberg wild hair I gets sometimes. Like you, I have those type of splitters and thought it to be the thing for many applications. Will be getting the Batson book then hit ya'll up agin. [127] =>

[128] => David S. - Fri 16 Nov 2007 11:46:31 #0 [129] =>

I'm here [130] =>

Darrell, thanks for setting this up; it's really nice to read the post again with out the "Free India Corn." I hope everybody else comes on over. I'm sure that if Sparky ever surfaces again this will all work out with no hard feelings from anyone. I had a blacksmith related comment to make when I sat down, but can't remember it now, so I'll just say hello and thanks again to Darrell.

[131] => Dave on the Edge of America where it's supposed to hit the upper 30's tonight and was almost 80 on Wednesday: must be Global cooling (grin). [132] =>

[133] => John Fee - Fri 16 Nov 2007 12:48:31 #0 [134] =>

projects [135] =>

Mills - I always say " ain't no since n finishin one project if you can start another un ".hehe [136] =>

[137] => Sweany - Fri 16 Nov 2007 13:47:48 #0 [138] =>

Little Giant [139] =>

[140] => A Hammer In
[141] => in celebration of the 100th birthday
[142] => of the first 25 LB Little Giant!

[143] => January 11 & 12, 2008
[144] => At Little Giant, Nebraska City, NE

[145] => See the 1st 25 LB serial #1, last 25 LB serial # 8876 and last 100 LB serial #1603 in operation!
[146] => Win door prizes!
[147] => Play with Little Giants!

[148] => Demonstrators:
[149] =>

[150] => Blacksmiths:
[151] => Bob Bergman
[152] => Phil Cox
[153] => Tom Clark
[154] => Ron Loken
[155] => Dean Slader

[156] => Bladesmiths:

[157] => Don Hanson
[158] => David Sloan

[159] => Tinsmith:

[160] => Chris Hagemann

[161] =>

[162] => Vendors:
[163] => KA Airhammers/Old World Anvils
[164] => Refflinghaus Anvils
[165] => Ozark School Tools

[166] => Registration fee $35 (2 meals & door prize tickets included). Send checks to Little Giant, 420 4th Corso, Nebraska City, NE 68410. To register by phone, call us at 402.873.6603. Questions? Call or email,
[167] => [168] =>

[169] => Sweany - Fri 16 Nov 2007 13:53:27 #0 [170] =>

splitter for forging [171] =>

Hey Ralph, Gene @ Center Cross Knifeworks using a splitter for his damascus work, he claims he can see the work better this away. He makes some really nice stuff so I' have to believe him.

[172] => By the way they Found the #1 LG in Perry OK. (BOG) [173] =>

[174] => Sweany - Fri 16 Nov 2007 13:55:16 #0 [175] =>

OOPS [176] => [177] =>

[178] => Whitetrash - Fri 16 Nov 2007 14:30:43 #0 [179] =>

Checkin'in [180] =>

Been kinda' scared to post at the 'old hangout', but still check it every day...til today. Thanks to Darrell for taking on this project. Regards to all. [181] =>

[182] => D-ski - Fri 16 Nov 2007 18:31:11 #0 [183] =>

Golden mean [184] =>

A while back we were talking about the golden mean. Some one, I think it might have been Bill W. posted a link to making a 3 legged divider that always gave you 2 dimensions that had the "golden mean" relationship to each other: 1 to 1.618.

[185] => Lee Valley and Veritas, wood working catalog, now lists a set of rulers, ranging from 6" to 36" that allow you to do the same thing. On one side of the ruler if the short side is known, you can find the long side. The other side does the opposite: known long side, the ruler gives you the short side.

[186] => I still plan to make the dividers, becuase, I think it is a neat project, but the rulers look like they might be more practical.

[187] => D-ski
[188] => Westminster, MD (Finally feeling like November.) [189] =>

[190] => Jeff Reinhardt - Fri 16 Nov 2007 19:18:29 #0 [191] =>

Hydraulics data book [192] =>

For those looking for a great little resource there is a usefull little data book with most of the rules of thumb and data one needs when working with pnuematics and hydraulics. i was given one at Westinghouse Air Brake Co in about 1979. It is the FFluid Power Data Book, published by Womack Educational publications. I think the current issue is the 10 edition. Mine is the third :)
[193] => Many fluid power distributor will give you one. They are little paper bound shirt pocket sixe reference books. I found that one fluid power co. will give one upon request
[194] =>
[195] => I have used mine so much that I had to duct tape the cover back on, and have one in EACH shop, the house, and at work. I think the distributors pay $80/100copies. Mine is marked as being $0.50 [196] =>

[197] => Ralph Sproul - Fri 16 Nov 2007 19:32:34 #0 [198] =>

Fluid Power book [199] =>

Mills, the book Jeff just mentioned (little paperpack) - great book on doing the figuring with all kinds of formulas and specs. Usually it's good to get the cylinder first so you know how much volume at a particular pressure to give you what your after. The Fluid Power Book is great for the figurin.

[200] => Ralph [201] =>

[202] => John Larson - Fri 16 Nov 2007 19:48:36 #0 [203] =>

[204] =>

When I opened the big box from Norgren I found two cylinders, but one was wrong. So it'll be another week before I get what I needed today, plus I get to drive outta my way to put the wrong cylinder on its way to Tulsa, OK. Then I ran outta fuel on the forklift,plus ruined a bandsaw blade to force me into another trip to town. PITA. I made top pivots for the cylinders on two hammers. That's it???? Yeah, lousy day. Well, I did clean up a messy desk, verified some sketching, and gave the furnace some first of the season running time. Nevertheless, a lousy day. A grumpy old man who needs a good night's sleep. [205] =>

[206] => Rudy - Fri 16 Nov 2007 20:13:28 #0 [207] =>

Little Uglies [208] =>

Has anyone here ever made any of Chapman's "Little Ugly" folders?

[209] => I just tried and, w a decent piece of steel, making the blade is the easy part. No matter how I filed and measured (measured and FILED) the handle/case just plain came out clunky and 'way too big.

[210] => Obviously I am missing one of the more subtle paradigms of quality design work. Anyone else have the same problem? [211] =>

[212] => Jeff Reinhardt - Fri 16 Nov 2007 21:20:47 #0 [213] =>

[214] =>

Rudy, I made a face on the end little ugly. Blade works a treat, but indeed clunky. I take it to demo's sometimes to show that yes I do make knives even though I am not a bladesmith, and don't make pretty knives. Been offered $100 for it. No way I would pay $100 for it and I think I had about a $1000 in hours in it:)
[215] => I have been looking for a correct hunk of antler and I will try one of the other style. [216] =>

[217] => Brian C. - Fri 16 Nov 2007 21:25:15 #0 [218] =>

utensils [219] =>

Just posted a pic of a set of brass & steel kitchen utensils with a wall rack. A Captain I work for ordered them for his Mrs. for Christmas. [220] =>

[221] => plain ol Bill - Fri 16 Nov 2007 23:08:17 #0 [222] =>

More hydraulics [223] =>

Ralph was dead on with the fact that forging dies on a press suck the heat out of the metal fast. Now with that said I'll add a press works a LOT differently than a hammer when making damascus also. A press works material from the center to the outside and a hammer works from the outside in. You can make two identical billets, one on a hammer and one w/ a press and you will get two diffeent patterns. All according to the look you want in deciding which to use if you have both available. I do have both, but if I had to give up either the power hammer or the press the hammer would go out the door. My press is a double cylinder design with the basic idea coming from Batson's book about presses. Take a look on the shop tour at The pic of it was taken when new and it ain't shiny anymore. [224] =>

[225] => Darrell - Sat 17 Nov 2007 00:08:04 #0 [226] =>

Photo Gallery [227] =>

If you want any of your photos from the other site, one way to do it is click on your name in the gallery. Then bring up the photo you want to transfer. Right click and choose "save image as". When you have the ones you want, go to the Add a Photo link and post it.

[228] => Just a heads up, if Sparky doesn't do anything the domain expires January 3rd, 2008.
[229] => After that you may not be able to get on that site.

[230] => I am still hoping to hear from Alan but it makes me think, who would know to inform this board if something happened to you? [231] =>

[232] => Ralph Sproul - Sat 17 Nov 2007 07:45:43 #0 [233] =>

press tools [234] =>

Plain ole Bill - good info on the pattern difference when moving the skin vs the core with hammer vs press. I've never made a knife or done damascus so I wasn't aware you could change patterns that way. Would you have a picture of some of your press dies? I'd be curious as to some of their uses for knives and general forging. I went to your site to check out your shop tour mostly to see what you meant by dual piston......I figured you were talking about two run by a flow divider but saw you have two different sized for different jobs or two different dies on a press I could see as being real handy for some of the work I do in making railing parts - you're always swapping dies - clever to just walk to the second station and back. You flip a switching valve to run flow from one or the other? I suppose two valves in series with a power beyond button in one would work as well. I hope your running your press with a foot pedal instead of hand levers - two stations(that linkage must be interesting).

[235] => John Larson - I too had a day like that this week. I would have been far ahead of the game to stay in bed on Thursday......Friday made up for it though - so I'll take Thursday with a grain of salt. I can't believe how much stuff went wrong in one day. I hate it when I walk out of my shop at night wishing to change the line of work I do. Fortunately it's only a few days a year so I stick with it. Wish they had a shitty day meter next to the thermometer so you could know to stay home!

[236] => Ralph [237] =>

[238] => Ralph Sproul - Sat 17 Nov 2007 07:56:51 #0 [239] =>

question for Darrell [240] =>

Why do I keep getting a 404 error message when trying to post something for sale? I'm on the page - hit post and it tells me I might have the address wrong.......or the page has expired? I get the error message instead of the secure name/password tag. Any input?

[241] => Ralph [242] =>

[243] => Ralph Sproul - Sat 17 Nov 2007 08:49:56 #0 [244] =>

heat glass [245] =>

A customer was talking to me about a firescreen with possible glass doors. What is the name of the heat resistant glass? I've got to look up a source and get a price.......anyone know of a good source for that heat glass. I seem to remember there are different grades as well - anyone have any light to shed on that?

[246] => Is it possible to by Pyrex in sheets? - that certainly holds up to oven temps - but I can just imagine the price of this stuff if tempered glass is what it is.

[247] => Ralph [248] =>

[249] => brucegodlesky - Sat 17 Nov 2007 10:19:19 #0 [250] =>

[251] =>

Ralph pyroceum what you are looking for? I bought some from a knife supply guy to line the platen on one of my beltgrinders.
[252] => A shitty day meter is a good idea. bruce [253] =>

[254] => Jeremy K - Sat 17 Nov 2007 11:17:08 #0 [255] =>

Heat Glass / Al Milliman - fellow smith passes [256] =>

Ralph - I replaced the glass in my fireplace doors with - I think they called it ceramic glass. It's been quite awhile ago and seems to me it was around $100 sq ft. course that was custom cut into 4 panels. They haven't broke yet.

[257] => Yesterday - I got a bad call from a friend(neighbor about 6 miles away) of mines wife, saying they came home from traveling early due to illness. She informed my that Al was not expected to last much more than days(cancer). I stopped over to his place for about 2 hours, His wish was to pass at home in Minnesota. His final breaths were taken shortly after I left last night in the company of family.
[258] => AL was an inspiring force to get me into smithing and was with me while buying my first anvil. Some may know him from the guild activities or classes. AL always liked stopping over to see what I was working on and we always had great conversations about everything. AL.....Rest in Peace - JK [259] =>

[260] => Daryl - Sat 17 Nov 2007 12:21:46 #0 [261] =>

Heat glass / Jeremy [262] =>

Ralph I'm not sure if it would be fused quartz glass. I'm ordering some elements for a glass fusing kiln, and they will be inside fused quartz glass tubes, not cheap just less than a dollar an inch, but no problem with the heat.

[263] => My sincere condolences to you and Al's family. [264] =>

[265] => Rudy - Sat 17 Nov 2007 13:48:20 #0 [266] =>

Little uglies [267] =>

I was so disappointed (OK I saw it coming, but it was half finished) w the clunky nature of the folder I made, I decided to do a better job next time.

[268] => Spent about 3 hours (wait time in pizza parlor, sit and veggie time in a starbucks) drawing and doing math.

[269] => Finally decided to just plain make a SIMPLE folding knife, not a lockback.

[270] => HAH!

[271] => I started w a 3" long, 1/2" wide blade w a 1/2" extension for the pin. I now have a drawing (and a slight headache) that does not have one single dimension 3 or 1/2 inch or any reasonable fraction/multiple thereof. I have two radii w a strange ratio, which osculate internally but are not on the same center. The pin for the blade does not go through either radii center OR the centers of the handle or the blade. I actually think I've got a working design, but it wasn't simple.

[272] => Free advice to all: Learn to use graph paper, pencil, and patience. Check your math. Check your logic. Measure the drawing to make sure what it looks like and the numbers match. [273] =>

[274] => Darrell - Sat 17 Nov 2007 13:50:35 #0 [275] =>

For Sale Page [276] =>

I had an error getting to the For Sale Page. It is fixed.

[277] => Darrell
[278] => [279] =>

[280] => Daryl - Sat 17 Nov 2007 14:51:55 #0 [281] =>

Non Blacksmithing please skip over, Global Warming [282] =>

I'm kind of reluctant to post this as I don't want to offend anyone. I knew last week that the IPCC (Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change)Fourth Assessment Report was coming out today. So please take this as you wish, there is a fair amount of information here. The summary if you trust them, is most likely all you would need to read. Although they do not address Michael Crichton, and other experts with a similar points of view to his, they have done a fair amount of work and research to come to their conclusions, and made their results public.
[283] =>

[284] => There are also a number of newspaper articles out on the report
[285] => [286] =>

[287] => Mike B - Sat 17 Nov 2007 16:17:05 #0 [288] =>

Google Book Search [289] =>

I don't know if any of you have tried the "book search" on Google (it's listed as a Beta, so it may be pretty new. You have to click on the "more" link on the Google homepage to find it. After you run your search, you can click on "full view" to display only out-of-copyright (I hope) books available as free PDFs.

[290] => Here are two examples I found in a couple of quick searches.

[291] =>

[292] =>,M1

[293] => [294] =>

[295] => Rudy - Sat 17 Nov 2007 16:40:04 #0 [296] =>

Antler and knives [297] =>


[298] => A friend pointed out that if your not an experience knife maker (the furniture not the blades) or even if you are but are trying a new design, don't wait for the right piece of antler or other hard to find stuff. Use plastic or even cardboard. Now if you've got a disaster, you've still got a decent blade and not too much effort wasted and know EXACTLY what you need in the qualify stuff.

[299] => Anyone else follow that philosophy? [300] =>

[301] => John Larson - Sat 17 Nov 2007 18:38:54 #0 [302] =>

[303] =>

I began my day by fixing some cold air leaks and some smoke stack leaks. Helped a little nit, at least. Got the interior plumbing put together and was about to use an annular cutter to do the holes on the driver's side for the intake and exhaust manifolds and the bearing for the throttle shaft when I remembered that I ran outta the bearings. So I traipse off for an hour to fetch several at the only hardware store that I know stocks them. Once back at the third world I verified the annular cutter diameter to use and got the holes made. Put the hammer back on its baseplate and suddenly gravity got a whole lot stronger; too many times up and down a ladder. :-) So I quit.

[304] => Tomorrow is the guild meeting at Westminster so I run over there and show them my tomahawk heads. One of the guys is an expert, so maybe I'll get some tips. I think Dave Hammer told me he's demoing. [305] =>

[306] => Ellen - Sat 17 Nov 2007 19:03:55 #0 [307] =>

John [308] =>

I laid a vinyl tile floor yesterday and had trouble with a "gravity storm" at the end of the day. Stiff and sore this AM, went for a motorcycle ride which worked the kinks out, sorta. Good luck on the tomahawks. I need to make some of those! Think I will wrap, steel, and forge weld rather than punch just to see how it goes. [309] =>

[310] => John Fe - Sat 17 Nov 2007 20:58:27 #0 [311] =>

meeting [312] =>

Gonna have a gas forge building meeting here tomorrow. Gonna build 1- 1 burner, 3- 2 burnner ,and 1-3 burner forges. I've been cleanin and rearangin shit for hours and I ain't seem much progress yet :-(
[313] => Puls the unreasonalble bitch I live with insist on parkin her van in the grage for the winter. She wanted the same thing last year.. Ain't no pleasein her.hehehee She's a pretty good ole gal to put up with my shit.
[314] => Goin with the Zoller side arm design instead of the Ron Reiel(sp) style this time. Boy is them pipe and tubeing fittin's expensive !!!!

[315] => Larry Zoller- you over here yet ? I read on your web site that the tweeco tips are ¼ x 28 threads, but when I trid that they were sloppy, so I took one into the machine shop and turns out they are metric number 6, at least the ones I bought are. Also the schu. 80 1/8" nipples are a little big for the tap, I could spin the tip in the threads, so I heated up one end and sweaged it down a little, now it tightens up.

[316] => Today me-n-my brother replaced the 6" stove pipe from my wood stove in the grage, 16' of it. Then I build a fire in it and I glad I did. The new stuff smoked and stunk for an hour, had to have the doors open. Glad I didn't wait till tomorrow morning when the meeting starts. :-) [317] =>

[318] => John N - Sat 17 Nov 2007 21:07:14 #0 [319] =>

John L's Hammers [320] =>

John, I enjoy your posts about hammer building (and am still waiting for the youtube advert), I do a similar line of work and constantly have to self motivate myself, and sometimes when im ready for 'home'I think if some bloke (gussin your alot older than me at 32) in the states can weld 2 containers and build a hammer I can put in an extra hour!

[321] => Now, what I dont understand is why you make your anvils from laminated plate. I can buy cut plate upto 18" thick for not much more per lb than 1" thick why go to the effort of making them like ya do? - just curious...

[322] => [323] =>

[324] => Jim Fecteau - Sat 17 Nov 2007 22:19:30 #0 [325] =>

tempered Pyrex glass [326] =>

Hi All
[327] => I may need two pieces of tempered Pyrex glass 18" x 36". I've asked me to build a sliding glass screen that will slide into the sides of a stone fireplace (like a pocket door)! Should be a fun job.
[328] => Anyone know where I can get a supplier in the Vermont area.
[329] => JIM [330] =>

[331] => Mike B - Sat 17 Nov 2007 22:33:10 #0 [332] =>

A few more to get you started [333] =>

The Making, Shaping, and Treating of Steel:

[334] =>,M1

[335] => Machinery's Reference Series chapter on blacksmithing:

[336] =>,M1

[337] => textbook on foundry and forging:

[338] =>,M1

[339] => [340] =>

[341] => Jim Fecteau - Sat 17 Nov 2007 23:13:26 #0 [342] =>

tempered Pyrex glass and stuff [343] =>

[344] => Are you asking about the glass for me??

[345] => Sorry all, I messed up my last post......... I did a cut and past and thought I changed the wording.
[346] => Anyway it should read: I've been asked to build a.............

[347] => That hole thing about a bad day meter.
[348] => Man, I'll have to be on the lookout for that one. Going back to bed is way better then getting as wound up as I can get. The last go around was my compressor motor fried itself (on Wednesday) and I had to fork out $400 cash for a new 5HP motor.
[349] =>
[350] => [351] =>

[352] => Ralph Sproul - Sat 17 Nov 2007 23:52:39 #0 [353] =>

Glass / Fittings [354] =>

Bruce, Jeremy, Daryl - Thanks for the names of glass to price out, I'm going to continue to research even though the customer didn't want to afford screen - never mind glass (oh well).

[355] => John Fee - The price of those forge fittings has really skyrocketed since copper prices rose. Don't know if it makes sense folks are ripping off copper from houses - but the stuff sure is expensive now. I use sched 80 pipe nipples to thread the 1/4-28 mig tips in. Interesting point about the threads - some tips I've bought were loose - never thought to check if those loose ones were metric.

[356] => Jim Fecteau - You had asked about that glass - then I got a call from a customer who wanted a 4' x 5' screen (with the option of possible drop on doors). Second call back I asked his expectations in price......... needless to say that cut to the chase and found me not getting to serious about that job. I still want to know supplier and cost info for future if you come up with it before I do.

[357] => Jeremy - Sorry to hear you'velost such a good and inspiring friend. I met an awful lot of good folks two years ago at the Guild of Metalsmiths meeting.

[358] => Ralph [359] =>

[360] => Jim Fecteau - Sun 18 Nov 2007 00:18:33 #0 [361] =>

tempered Pyrex glass [362] =>

I emailed a company out of Elmira New York named Swift Glass asking for a quote for 2) 18" x 36" x 1/4" plates.
[363] => We shell see.
[364] => It's tuff to find folks that can afford the work we do. It's smart to let them know what kind of work we do right from the get go. I learned that from an old duffer when he said look them in the eyes and give them the price.
[365] => Was that you Ralph? (-= JIM [366] =>

[367] => Rich Waugh - Sun 18 Nov 2007 00:30:45 #0 [368] =>

MIG Tips [369] =>

Tweco's tapered mig tips are, indeed, a 6x1.25mm metric thread, as I recall. They'll actually work in a 1/4-28 hole if you use some Harvey's pipe dope or Teflon tape. They do work better in the right hole, though. :-)

[370] => Yeah, I've gotten intimately familiar with the price of copper lately. Two square feet of 1/8" Si bronze was over $150 - before shipping. Yowee! It sure is nice to work with, I gotta say. Forges nice, either hot or cold, TIG welds like stainless steel only easier, and is easy to finish. On top of that, it sure is pretty! If the stuff wasn't so damnably expensive, I'd use it for everything. [371] =>

[372] => Ralph Sproul - Sun 18 Nov 2007 00:39:45 #0 [373] =>

Book listings [374] =>

Mike B - Thanks for posting the links to the google books - some good info in there. I like the jigs and fixtures along with power hammer tooling schematics.

[375] => Ralph [376] =>

[377] => Jim Fecteau - Sun 18 Nov 2007 00:43:16 #0 [378] =>

thanks [379] =>

I forgot to thank all that responded to Ralph's question about "heat glass"
[380] => I asked my question before looking through the posts for the day.
[381] => I got my answer off post from Rich Waugh:
[382] => Rich said:
[383] => I finally remembered what I was trying to think of on Jim’s glass. I think the stuff you want is “boro-silicate glass.” Heat resistant. Pyrex was originally borosilicate glass, I think.

[384] => I then did a Google search for borosilicate glass and one of the findings was They broke it down to regions and I picked upstate New York

[385] => You hit the nail right on the head Rich take a bow. Thanks all JIM
[386] =>
[387] => [388] =>

[389] => sandpile - Sun 18 Nov 2007 01:11:14 #0 [390] =>

Handles [391] =>

JEFF if you can describe what you are looking for I may have it sitting under my table. It is better for the great looking blade sit there wrapped comfortably in a rag than put some clunky handle on it.

[392] => Anybody can come up with a decent blade even if he has to buy it. The proof is in the pudding--Meaning how you finsh it and the sheath that goes with it. You can go to <> and see a lots of nice handled knives. You might see something there that would fit your deal, meaning you can come up with a lot ideas by scanning through the pics on that site.

[393] => Good luck

[394] => chuck [395] =>

[396] => John Larson - Sun 18 Nov 2007 08:26:23 #0 [397] =>

[398] =>

I've been using laminated anvils for quite a while now, but began the business with solid one-piece designs. I hand ground/sanded the tops for square using a try-square and angle grinder. A tough job for accuracy. I'm not saying I'll never go back to one-piecers, but here is why I'm doing laminations: neither me nor my big Cincinatti mill can lift a solid anvil. What I may do is go to fewer, thicker laminations now that I'm not drilling holes for 3/4" bolts that go all the way through the anvil to clench it to the main frame. The one-inch rolled stuff is readily available, two-inch rolled stuff is not always available, and bigger stuff has to be flame-cut and then edge machined on all four edges. I do believe that the reduction in welding and grinding time is mostly offset by the milling time. Obviously, I've thought about this part of the build process more than a little bit. IF I had a "bed-mill" I'd use one piece anvils, but it ain't possible with my "knee mill." [399] =>

[400] => Jeff Reinhardt - Sun 18 Nov 2007 10:18:45 #0 [401] =>

[402] =>

Chuck, The antler hunk I need is sorta like porno, I can't describe it, but I know it when I see it :) I am really not a knife maker, although I have made several. Mostly primative style patch knives to give to the mechanics at work. It seems when I start at a new place, if I take in a handfull of those, the mechanics find me all manner of stuff that would otherwise go to scrap:) Its gun season as of yesterday, And I asked several of those same guys from work to bring me some horn. If they don't find me something I will e-mail you. OBTW thanks for the very amusing e-mails.

[403] => John Larson. To work the anvils as a 1 piece, a floor mill would be the trick. Big machines should be fairly cheap right now. [404] =>

[405] => Mike B - Sun 18 Nov 2007 16:40:00 #0 [406] =>

Kiln Shelf [407] =>

I promised an update on the silicon carbide kiln shelf/gas forge floor I ordered at Rich's suggestion. I guess I'll start from the beginning and just hope I don't bore too many of you.

[408] => A month and a half ago I ordered a 12 X 24 "nitride bonded" silicon carbide kiln shelf from Bailey Pottery. The shelf was $45 (and will make three floors for my forge). Crating and shipping added $30 to my order. The also had proprietary silicon carbide shelves at two or three times the price.

[409] => After I placed my order, I got an email saying the shelves were out of stock. When I called to ask about a delivery date, I found that they were out of shelves with expansion grooves cut in them, but they had plain shelves (which I didn't see on their website) in stock. I wasn't sure if expansion grooves were a good idea anyway on a shelf I was going to cut up, so I had them substitute a solid shelf.

[410] => This may turn out to have been a bad idea. A couple of weeks ago, I noticed that my forge floor was cracked. They aren't just surface cracks; I first noticed them because the shelf was at different temperatures on each side of the cracks. On the other hand, the floor hasn't separated (yet), and the cracks don't seem to be causing any harm at the present. I cranked the regulator to full welding heat with the forge cold a couple of times; maybe I could have avoided the cracks by letting the forge come up to heat on a lower setting first.

[411] => On the plus side, I've done several welding sessions with borax/boric acid flux, and so far there's no apparent erosion of the floor. With my old alumina floors, I think there'd be a pretty good hollow under the flux puddle by now.

[412] => My forge does seem to take a little longer to heat up. I realized that my old floor formed a hot spot directly under the burner pretty quickly, and I could heat steel in that spot not long after I fired up. The silicon carbide is a much better conductor of heat, and the floor comes close to being hot everywhere or nowhere. I have to wait a little longer before I can get at a good heat on a piece, though I guess if I needed a long, even heat I could probably get that sooner than before.

[413] => And now for the strange part: my forge seems to get hotter, at least at welding heat. I've always been able to get at least a low welding heat, but I never got more that an occasional spark. I still can't get a full sparkler (not that I'd want to), but now when I soak a piece and pull it from the forge I get a steady stream of sparks. I'd think a more conductive floor would only mean less insulation. The new shelf's a little thinner and increased the effective size of my door and rear port; maybe the extra vent area made a difference.

[414] => [415] =>

[416] => John Larson - Sun 18 Nov 2007 19:30:53 #0 [417] =>

[418] =>

Never heard of a floor mill, Jeff, but the bed mill merely raises the floor about 30 inches and the table moves ways in two dimensions. Very much like a boring mill. For automation engineering concerns, the moving mass in the vertical direction is always the same regardless of the weight of the piece being machined. I'd suppose that a floor mill, like a gantry setup, has the mass the same for all x-y-z moves. Now that machine takes floor space (oh, not really-- it depends on the table size of course). Profilers often use this gantry rig. A decade ago, Grumman sold out its factory 6 miles from my house and they had two profilers, each with several gantries, and the total length of the machines was more than 200 feet. They pioneered cutting huge slabs of aluminum into airframe parts.

[419] => Boy, talk about a diversion.

[420] => Dave Hammer did a super job demonstrating at the guild meeting today. 3 1/2 hours of innovative things, leaf texturing to sculpture.

[421] => Darrell, keeping suspect applicants on the outside has got to be a tough call. But I think you are right about the one you mentioned privately.

[422] => It looks to me like I can continue to use my 35" tall tup cabinet with a 12" cylinder, by shortening the ball connector at the end of the clinder rod. Therefore the total hammer height, sans aerofoil lifting eye, is only 2" taller, 82". Maybe I can make the aerofoil only 3" tall. Then the final height is only 1" higher than now. I'm thinking of producing only 12" cylinder machines (11" strokes with 1" of safety zone).

[423] => [424] =>

[425] => Jeff Reinhardt - Sun 18 Nov 2007 20:01:42 #0 [426] =>

[427] =>

John Larson, a floor mill has a fixed table, flush with the floor. The mill head moves in three axis. At the boiler shop we often put several hundred holes in a boiler drum. The drums were as thick as 4" and the holes were for boiler tube. These drums would be about 10 to 12' in diameter and as much as 30' long. Much easier to move the mill head. If you have the lift capacity, a planner would also do the job, but does indeed take a fair amount of floor space. Great for long dove tails though, as well as slides etc. [428] =>

[429] => Jeff Reinhardt - Sun 18 Nov 2007 20:07:58 #0 [430] =>

[431] =>

I posted a picture of some of the trowels I make from RR spikes. [432] =>

[433] => Ralph Sproul - Sun 18 Nov 2007 21:25:13 #0 [434] =>

Kiln Shelf [435] =>

Mike - not a boring subject at all (to me anyway).... I built a pair of mini forges and one floor that I just ran up to a quick temp had the floor explode. The one I've had heat slowly seemed to do much better - but got those cracks your talking about.

[436] => My original intention on the mini forge was to put hooks in on the 1/2" floor and do each end at a time for coat racks, etc. I ended up with a sheet of 1/2" kaowool under the second mini forge to prevent loosing another floor. I just need to order more kiln shelf - then I won't care about the cracks going further, or coming apart on me like the first one did. [437] =>

[438] => Joe Rollings - Sun 18 Nov 2007 21:36:02 #0 [439] =>

Jeff's trowels [440] =>

Cool, Jeff. i guess the obvious question is how much do you sell them for, if you don't mind saying...Joe [441] =>

[442] => Steve Parker - Sun 18 Nov 2007 23:45:40 #0 [443] =>

Trowels [444] =>

Jeff, nice herd of trowels there.They must sell pretty good if you have made that many of them.
[445] => Steve [446] =>

[447] => Darrell - Mon 19 Nov 2007 00:47:17 #0 [448] =>

Trowels [449] =>

[450] => Nice trowels. Amazing what a spike can be made into. [451] =>

[452] => Ellen - Mon 19 Nov 2007 07:51:05 #0 [453] =>

Jeff [454] =>

Ingenious use of RR spikes, bet they go over well at your garden shows.... [455] =>

[456] => HW - Mon 19 Nov 2007 09:53:52 #0 [457] =>

[458] =>


[459] => Nice work - I am continually amazed at what folks can do with a spike.

[460] => John,

[461] => Shapers are a dime a dozen in these days of CNC. That would be my vote to dress your hammer anvils without having to laminate them. [462] =>

[463] => Jeff Reinhardt - Mon 19 Nov 2007 19:19:56 #0 [464] =>

Trowels [465] =>

Joe Rollings,
[466] => I sell them for $35 to $45 depending on the local and so forth.
[467] => I have sold 18 to one person! She gave them as Christmas gifts.
[468] => I started selling them at Hidden Hill Nursery, as a lark. They grudgingly took a few on consignment, not thinking they would sell. Next week I get a cal for some more. They had sold one to a gardener, and the staff had told the owner they wanted the rest to work with there. I think I am at about 140 sold and about 12 more as gifts to family.
[469] => I have made weed diggers, rakes, and Japanese garden knives from Spikes. I have sold exactly two weeders, 1 rake, and 4 or 5 of the garden knives. Go figger. [470] =>

[471] => Darrell - Mon 19 Nov 2007 19:38:05 #0 [472] =>

Registration [473] =>

Due to some questionable password requests I have changed the password form.
[474] => This does not affect those that have passwords.
[475] => If you have requested but not received a password, please reapply.

[476] => Darrell
[477] => [478] =>

[479] => sandpile - Mon 19 Nov 2007 20:06:24 #0 [480] =>


DARRELL-- Looks to me like you got now.

[482] => Chuck [483] =>

[484] => John Larson - Mon 19 Nov 2007 20:13:42 #0 [485] =>

[486] =>

I'll ponder the machine tool suggestions.

[487] => Today I worked on plumbing and did a buncha parts for more than one machine. Was a tad cool and wet. Got a call to do four hitches starting tomorrow. Man what a mess. I've been having a laugh with #1. We've studied "learning organizations". I'm dealing with a forgetting organization. :-) [488] =>

[489] => Bob S - Mon 19 Nov 2007 20:34:39 #0 [490] =>

spike trowels [491] =>

Jeff I like the spike trowels/knives. Are they the HC spikes or mild steel. Do you heat treat them at all.

[492] => Thanks [493] =>

[494] => Jeff Reinhardt - Mon 19 Nov 2007 20:47:52 #0 [495] =>

Trowels [496] =>

Bob S,
[497] => I like to use HC as forged. Then they are not so much hard as tuffer than woodpecker lips. The "Little old ladies that use these often use them HARD. I know of one that gardens 32.5 hours a week on average over a 3 year period, but she is 82. The younger ones, say the spring chickens of only 70 or so really use them hard:)
[498] => Seriously, I have used MC and HC. I tried heat treating, but saw no advantage gained as I leave a fair spine of metal down the center. I leave the neck with as much meat as I can after knocking off the corners.
[499] => Note, ALWAYS grind the markings and all burrs off the head. Most of these users hold the trowel in one hand and push with the other on the cap when the going gets tuff. In fact I always show how my Mother uses hers, left hand around the handle and right to get the shoulder behind it. She is the 82 year old. I pretty well smooth all the burrs and so forth off as these will cut up the users hands. I usually finish with a quick brass brushing and clear acrylic. I tell the buyers to take care of them as they will rust. I suggest they get a coffee can and fill with sand and add a table spoon or so of clean potor oil and just thrust the trowel into the sand when done.
[500] => These can be done by hand but a power hammer makes MUCH quicker work of the blade spreading. [501] =>

[502] => Joe Rollings - Mon 19 Nov 2007 21:13:06 #0 [503] =>

Trowels [504] =>

Jeff,thanks for the info. I always like to find out what stuff is selling for. My wife always says I am living in the past when it comes to pricing things and I say she is living in a fantasy world. More often than I like to admit, she is right and I am WRRRROO....Uh, maybe not quite as right as I think. It's also good to note that if you are making a tool or personal item that will be by a peson's side all day every day like a knife or hammer or spurs for a cowboy, that person will often spend a remarkable amount to have JUST the one he wants. I'm also impressed by the money folks will spend to outfit a room just the way they want it. I get orders all the time for towell bars with RR spikes as supports and Toilet paper holders from RR spikes $36 and $15 respectively. Always makes me gulp. I guess I AM living in the past....Joe [505] =>

[506] => Mike B - Mon 19 Nov 2007 21:29:01 #0 [507] =>

Trowels [508] =>


[509] => I like those trowels. I have one I made a couple of years ago from #9 (I think) rebar. I left the rebar pattern on the handle, and upset the "pommel" a little. It's just about indestructable, and the weight comes in handy for going through roots and such. Not sure I want to make another without a power hammer, though . . . [510] =>

[511] => Tom C - Mon 19 Nov 2007 22:38:07 #0 [512] =>

Sanctuary! Sanctuary! [513] =>

Burnt Forge & the porn spam finally got to me. I'll still read it to see what Nathan & similar die hards have to say, but man I'm tired of those other creeps.

[514] => Louise & I did The Visual Arts Center of Richmond's annual Craft & Design show last weekend & can report that the new venue at the Science Museum was successful. I only sold a table lamp & didn't win the metal prize this year, but we use it for advertizing mainly & gave out a hundred or so pieces of literature, so we're happy. It's apparant to me that the whole craft fair circuit is in transition now what with the rise of the internet & thus the wide availability of items from all over the world. It's hard for craftspeople to continue to do these shows & make a living. It'll be interesting to see how things evolve in the upcoming years.

[515] => Very cool trowels, Jeff.

[516] => Tom C [517] =>

[518] => sandpile - Mon 19 Nov 2007 22:54:06 #0 [519] =>

SHOWS [520] =>

TOM. I think the whole economy is slowing down. I don't get near as many high end knives sold and the medium priced are starting to slow up.

[521] => My daughter--in--law(credit manager) in San Angelo works for a big car dealership. Normally they sell 250+ units a month. This month they are setting on 100 and it is close to the end of the month.

[522] => I hear from other people in sales, and they have about the same story.

[523] => chuck [524] =>

[525] => Joe Rollings - Mon 19 Nov 2007 23:38:37 #0 [526] =>

economy [527] =>

A lot of the shops I sell to are really hurting. I had a shop today ask for a week's credit on a $350 order that would have been peanuts to them a year ago. I thought for quite a while that my product lines were getting stale, but the last sales run I made, I asked around and was told they were selling better than other stuff in the shops. It's not my lines, it's the business itself. Nothing has really been the same since 9-11 in the gift shop industry. We just have to use our imaginations and do our best work at our best prices and we'll get through all right, but it's kind of a surprise once I figured out what's going on. A friend in Cal. told me that most of the stuff at the shows is being made in China. The artisan will make a prototype and send it to China to get reproduced, then spend all his time on sales and no time at all on production. Even small guys seem to be giving 'way to the temptation. Thank God for our tool lines. At least artisans are still tooling up!...Joe [528] =>

[529] => Jymm Hoffman - Tue 20 Nov 2007 00:25:17 #0 [530] =>

Gas Forge Floors [531] =>

While I only tried one shelf floor, I have had great success with ram refractory in the bottom of my gas forges. I recommend APGreen's Green Pack 85. It does not crack nor show much, if any, wear. Flux will puddle in the bottom of the forges I build using this stuff. While same call it plastic, some call it a ram refractory. APGreen was bought out by Harbison: [532] =>

[533] => John Fe - Tue 20 Nov 2007 00:43:38 #0 [534] =>

no respect [535] =>

Brian C - Now you know how I felt when no one mentioned my gate :-) ? I had Rich's flower to compete with and you got Jeffs trowels.
[536] => So let me be the first to say I like you kitchen set and think it will make a great x mas gift.
[537] => There that oughtta shame some of these sonsofbitchs into sayin something...hehehe

[538] => hey Tom C welcome to the dark side with the rest of us chicken little, ship jumpin, un faithful, scum.:-) [539] =>

[540] => Rich Waugh - Tue 20 Nov 2007 00:49:51 #0 [541] =>

Various and Sundry [542] =>

I've been really busy the past several days. I got a load of orders from a designer that likes my work and my work ethics, and I never say no to her orders. She never quibbles about price, and pays immediately. Needless to say, she's my favorite client. The latest job for her doesn't even involve much metalwork. She needs four scale model ship's cannons about 30" long. The barrels will be wood on these. Those are going to be interesting; it's been some years (okay, decades) since I did any wood turning. Fortunately, when my brother moved up to the States last month, I traded him my long-unused 6" jointer for his equally long-unused 12"x48" wood lathe. Just have to forge a couple of quick gouges and I'm in business to make splinters. At least I'll get to forge the hardware for the cannons.

[543] => I was amused on the other site by good ole Burnt-outForgery. Someone pretty much told his straight out that his chance of getting approved topost over here was somewhere between nothing and the square root of jack. Naturally, he immediately accused me of generating the posts about him. (grin) Ya gotta love a paranoid who is soooooo consistent! Sure glad he's not over here. We definitely do not need him or his ilk.

[544] => Sure nice not to have to take all that time to read the porn spam. That was really cutting into my time for reading blacksmithing stuff. (grin)

[545] => I do hope that someone hears from Allan Turner sometime soon. I'm beginning to be concerned about him, and have no way to contact him. Hope he's okay.

[546] => Lots of nice work posted in the gallery. Thanks to all of you who posted it, I use it for inspiration. Well, okay, I steal ideas from y'all. (grin)

[547] => Mike B: Thanks for the report ont he silicon carbide kiln shelf. I didn't know they sold it without the grooves. I have had it crack anway, but it doesn't seem to affect how it works. I always put a couple of inches of Kaowool under my floor, and anywher from four to eight kiln posts to support the floor. That's mostly a hangover from kiln-building days when floors sagged if not supported, but the posts are cheap and seem like good insurance.

[548] => That's interesting about the seemingly higher heat. I agree, yo'd think the opposite would be the case, if anything. I guess you need to build two new identical forges, one with a mullite shelf and one with silicon carbide, then see if there's a difference. You could use a couple more forges anyway, right? :-)

[549] => I wonder if there would be any benefit to building a forge with a bottom composed of a thin (3/8") silicon carbide floor over a subfloor of either castable refractory or mullite? I need to build a new forge soon and maybe I'll try the castable. I bought a bag or two of it a while back and I should use it before it gets moldy or stale or whatever it does when you don't use it soon enough. It didn't come with a "freshness date", though. I think I may go with a blown burner design this time. I've been wavering about that, because of the price of propane. With atmospheric burners, I can use an "idle" circuit to cut my gas consumption by about half, and the general consensus is that you can't do that with a blown burner. I think I may have a way around that, though.

[550] => My idea is to build the forge with two blown burners, capable of being operated independently. Then, I'm thinking of adding a third litle burner that will be the "idle" burner. I can then shut down the main burners and still have the forge stay hot, and have "live flame" so that the main burners will re-light instantly when I turn them back on. It can be handled using a gas solenoid for the main gas valve. That way, a flick of a switch and the gas and blower shut down, but the little burner will be supplied upstream of the solenoid so it will stay on. Sort of a pilot light on steroids concept.

[551] => How say you all - does this sound like it will work? Any problem yo can forsee with this Rube Goldberg concoction? I fit works this would answer several of my needs, so I'd welcome all input.

[552] => Time for bed - tomorrow is another long day in the shop wiring lights and gluing up wood for cannons. And I thought I was a metalsmith! [553] =>

[554] => Rudy - Tue 20 Nov 2007 01:21:03 #0 [555] =>

Trouble makers [556] =>

Personally, I try NEVER to post anything offensive or in response (even politely) to an obnoxious posting.

[557] => Do I do this because I'm a nice guy? NO! I do it because I am a cast iron SOB who has discover that NOTHING bugs the other guy more than being TOTALLY (and I mean totally) ignored. I wouldn't even inform a trouble maker he was being ignored or he would not ever be granted admission.

[558] => I told my girlfriend about this tactic once and she said "cold"!

[559] => [560] =>

[561] => Rich Waugh - Tue 20 Nov 2007 01:41:50 #0 [562] =>

Rudy [563] =>

I agree wholeheartedly. Nothing worse you can do to someone who is just tyring to get attention, than ignore them completely. Unfortunately, every now and then my resolve weakens and I get sucked in to replying. I regret it immediately, and the original jerk usually manages to make me regret it several times over, as well. I don't seem to learn, though. :-) [564] =>

[565] => Brian C. - Tue 20 Nov 2007 05:23:27 #0 [566] =>

quiet [567] =>

Sure is quiet in here at this time of night. Nobody to play with, midnight shifts are sure fun. :) [568] =>

[569] => Jeremy K - Tue 20 Nov 2007 09:06:46 #0 [570] =>

Rich W / gas forge [571] =>

Rich - making a gas forge with burners to be idle or not should be no problem. lots of them are made that way already. I have a NC 6 burner tunnel forge for texturing, 36" long heats comes in handy. I can (with just a ball valve)shut the back 3 burners off if not needed, when I need them again - just turn the valve and they are lighted instantly. I do really like this model of forge for doing production texturing like railing pickets. Each picket can be textured in 1 heat - kinda takes the fun out of it but I deal with it (I just forge something for myself being I saved so much time). - JK [572] =>

[573] => Marc - Tue 20 Nov 2007 09:11:47 #0 [574] =>

Couple things [575] =>

About BurntForgery, my favorite rule to live by is, "Never argue with an idiot. Bystanders can't tell which is which."

[576] => I have no problem idling my blown burner. The only problem is you have to turn down both air and gas. I don't use an idling circuit any more. I find it just as easy to turn down the needle valve to a known low spot. You can do the same for the blower control.

[577] => I find I can get much lower heat with my blown forge. At some point with a naturally aspirated burner you don't have enough gas flow to pull in enough air. And if you have your burner pointing down, the hot rising gas in the forge will further hamper incoming air and force you to turn the idle up even more. But with the blower, I can turn it down to barely a pilot flame, as long as the air goes down with it.

[578] => I think there are more expensive burners that have built-in pilot lights. More expensive than $15 worth of plumbing, anyway.

[579] => [580] =>

[581] => Ellen - Tue 20 Nov 2007 10:29:38 #0 [582] =>

Joe Rollings, Sandpile, Rich [583] =>

Joe, what is your website URL again please? Lost it somehow in the shuffle. Thanks!

[584] => Sandpile, thanks for the 52100. Envelope headed your way. Hardening and tempering tips please?

[585] => Rich, my blown forge turns way down. Jymm says he puts a water gate valve on his and can turn it down even lower. Might be cheaper and simpler than the alternatives.

[586] => Spam totally out of hand next door. Takes too long to even find a BS post. Intersting timing on the latest flood of filth. [587] =>

[588] => Mills - Tue 20 Nov 2007 10:48:06 #0 [589] =>

[590] =>

Catching my wind today. It is tough to even browse over there anymore. And when undesirables showed up and started playing games again...THANK YOU DARRELL!

[591] => I do hope Sparky shows up soon. He must be swamped.

[592] => Went to Alva for the Centennial celebration and took some pictures of the fence again. Will post later. Mike showed us a little of chasing and reposse on his treadle hammer and now guess who is insisting she needs one! And she doesn't much like me using her hammers either. :)) hmmm I really shouldn't get snotty about this but for so long I just looked for a reason to get more toys rather than aquire necessary tools for production....It is good to have her in with me doing the same stuff, I'll leave it alone... I will....... Honest...... [593] =>

[594] => Primtechsmith - Tue 20 Nov 2007 11:04:29 #0 [595] =>

Bill Epps Demo [596] =>

Had a great time over the past weekend watching and talking with Bill Epps. I posted a couple of photos in the gallery. There are a bunch over at in the gallery from both days.

[597] => Bill is a great guy and this was my second time seeing his demo but the first time I got the chance to talk with him. I hope everybody gets a chance to hang out with Bill. He is a lot of fun, and full of knowledge and opinions!!! I wouldn't trade the past weekend for anything.

[598] => ...oh by the way. David Hutchison won the anvil! Congrats to him!

[599] => Peyton [600] =>

[601] => Daryl - Tue 20 Nov 2007 11:08:24 #0 [602] =>

Some things I have done with forges [603] =>

Venturi burners, if you use a smaller orifice, you need more pressure to get the same amount of fuel, I went to a real small orifice. It means that for me I run at about 20psi for normal forging but I can idle my forge at very low temperatures and still have enough pressure for the venturi effect and get air for combustion.
[604] => Note just because I run the forge at high pressure, it does not mean I use more fuel.

[605] => When I make a forge I use a 12" round cylinder with 2" of kaowool In the bottom I use an IFB (Insulating Fire Brick) I pack in little bits of Kaowool along the sides of the brick to fill in the floor and then cover with about 3/8" of Grefpatch 85, I also run it up the sides about an in an a half to protect against poking the kaowool. The advantage to using Grefpatch 85 is that you can use it to patch its self in the future, this may also be true with other materials. I then spray the whole thing with ITC100

[606] => I'd sure like to hear from Sparky [607] =>

[608] => Joe Rollings - Tue 20 Nov 2007 17:57:13 #0 [609] =>

Ellen [610] =>

It's It's a bit of a mess right now, Paypal buttons moving around on their own. Daughter is home for Thanksgiving, so she'll give me another training session so's maybe I can care for it myself....Joe [611] =>

[612] => Mike B - Tue 20 Nov 2007 19:04:11 #0 [613] =>

Gas Forges [614] =>


[615] => Do you have trouble with getting too lean a mixture? I'd think that the smaller orifice and higher pressure would pull in more air for the same amount of gas.

[616] => In my gas forge, I use an orifice that's slightly "too small" and have a separate needle valve set up to bleed extra gas into the burner inlet through a large orifice (actually, the tube from the needle valve just ends). I did this so I can adjust the mixture from oxidizing to reducing without having to choke the burner. Maybe my low-end performance is also better than it would be with a bigger orifice, but I don't really know. [617] =>

[618] => Jeff Reinhardt - Tue 20 Nov 2007 19:12:05 #0 [619] =>

[620] =>

Brian C,
[621] => I gues Fe is due a payback as we gave him a fair amount of grief over his superb gate. Are going to take this like men or whine a lot? I'm all for whining as look at all the attention it got John's gate. Besides we need to break this site in on the history and lore of the stupendenous Fe gate. You tools are quite nice by the way. Not a Fe gate, but quite nice. :) [622] =>

[623] => Jymm Hoffman - Tue 20 Nov 2007 20:06:48 #0 [624] =>

Gassed up [625] =>

Rich, nice idea, however practical applications could be tricky and counter productive. Burner tips in the forge or close enough to get heat will show worse wear from scaling if they are not protected from heat while not in use. One of the reasons why my forges work well is the ram refractory radiating heat (and being reflected from blanket as well,) so if you don't get it up to temperature and keep it there, it takes longer to heat metal. So most of the time I don't shut down between heats but do between projects or taking breaks, etc, unless I am heating the shop, but I don't think you really worry about that. As Ellen mentioned, a gate valve on the air line allows me to give me a lot more control and run at lower temps. Although, most of the time I am running flat out as hot as I can. The faster the metal heats up, the sooner I can shape it. Depends on which forge I use, I have to start watching that I don't burn up after about an hour and normally cut back the gas through the day. I do not have an exact number, but my largest forge uses between 1 to 11/2 gallons of propane per hour of burn. This June I locked into a pre buy of 1,000 gallons for $1.99 per gallon and $60.00 tank rentals. [626] =>

[627] => Daryl - Tue 20 Nov 2007 20:08:21 #0 [628] =>

Mike B [629] =>

I have had a problem with having it too lean, although I started small and worked it bigger until I got it close to what I wanted. Some days it was perfect others it was a little off. I decided it might be something like barometric pressure, or maybe the wind blowing the wrong way. Instead of fiddling around I put a very simple choke on the burner, it works great, I don't know why I didn't put a choke on earlier. The Burners I make are mainly the simple Derry Cook/Ron Reil style, But I've also made a burners that are similar to the side arm, I've just never found that side arm fitting. I also use a flare, they are great for setting up a burner. [630] =>

[631] => John Larson - Tue 20 Nov 2007 20:35:51 #0 [632] =>

[633] =>

Drizzly until afternoon. Worked on the hammer and then went to the welding site. Finally got the yard guy to tell me what he really wants. Did one jack and then will wait until Monday on the rest. Sigh. Trying to move fast with this outfit just doesn't work.

[634] => The hammer building work had me on the Cincinatti mill. This is the first machine I'm building with a wedge to hold the sow block dovetail. The last hammer got away from using the big clench bolts and used a set of set screws to hold the sow block dovetail pin. This hammer is going totally classical with the use of a wedge. Some trial and error work finally got me to where I wanted to be. The wedge is all trapesoidal (as Grant Sarver once remarked). Also built a control mechanism to put the stroke tuning dial on the driver side. [635] =>

[636] => HW - Tue 20 Nov 2007 21:13:15 #0 [637] =>

Gas Forges [638] =>

Some of the issues y'all are discussing are the reasons I abandoned atmospheric forges. I always had to fiddle with them and the heat seemed to be governed by ambient temp, humidity, phase of the moon, etc. I already had a small squirrel cage from Grainger (60 cfm) so I bolted that to a piece of pipe and piped the gas through a needle valve about 2 inches forward from the blower. The needle valve gives me the necessary tuning and allows a good heat - although I cannot forge weld consistently - maybe because I am not dumping in enough fuel. I always aim to have very little gas burning outside the forge so the "dragon's breath" is minimal but that is probably why I can only get to a bright yellow, great for forging but right on the edge of that incandescent temp needed for consistent welding. I consume a 25 gallon tank in about 30 hours of forging so it sounds similar to Jymm's usage. I also never throttle back and always run at max temp so I can work faster...time is worth more than propane.

[639] => Over the holidays, I plan to build a variety of sizes. Like Jeremy, I'll have one long one for pickets, a very small one for leaves and tips (my wife called my old home-built atmospheric forge the "Pocket Rocket") and one with a long slit so I can get a big scroll into a single heat. [640] =>

[641] => Brian C. - Tue 20 Nov 2007 22:09:27 #0 [642] =>

tools & trowels [643] =>

"You tools are quite nice by the way. Not a Fe gate, but quite nice. :)"

[644] => I would say the same for your trowels Jeff. :) But then again, WHAT could compare to the famous Gate Of Fee. [645] =>

[646] => Daryl - Tue 20 Nov 2007 22:25:20 #0 [647] =>

Forges and shipping stuff to Hawaii [648] =>

HW I'm pretty much standard on my burners now, I really fiddle with them less than with a blown forge. I think the biggest problem is people not getting enough fuel in them to get them hot. I have several different size forges my main forge inside is 5"H 8"W 12"D a 20 pound tank of propane lasts 8 hours Welding heat 5-6 hours I think that is what you guys call a 5 gallon tank or BBQ bottle.

[649] => I'm trying to get some tools together for an arts school in Hawaii, shipping costs straight from Canada is more than the cost of the tools. I know Rich was using some freight service to the VI is there something similar from the lower 48 to Hawaii?? I could most likely get someone to take it to Portland or San Diego. [650] =>

[651] => sandpile - Tue 20 Nov 2007 22:38:25 #0 [652] =>

shipping [653] =>

DARYL-- We used to get stuff boot-legged out there. Had a buddy that had a brother-in-law that flew an air force plane out of San Diego.

[654] => CHARLY or WAYNE P. or RUDY might know some one like that, that you could get a hitch-hiked ride to the islands.

[655] => chuck [656] =>

[657] => Mills - Tue 20 Nov 2007 22:52:26 #0 [658] =>

[659] =>

Posted some pictures of the Alva Centennial fence that took the first half of the summer. Posting is relatively painless now.

[660] => My brother found a free operating system upgrade for me, so soon I may be able to go to ebay or open a pdf file again. Mainly will get Skype so we can see the grandchild do the buttscootin boogie. Now to figure out Firewire and how to back up this thing.

[661] => Darrell I see that the categories have been tweaked a bit. Good it helps. But it looked the same almost so I put the fence project in to techniques as I usually did, when it ought to go into gates and railings. How about an edit function? Keep up the good work.

[662] => [663] =>

[664] => Darrell - Tue 20 Nov 2007 23:00:59 #0 [665] =>

Edit Function [666] =>

That would take a complete rewrite of the code.
[667] => Best I can do is that E mail link on the Add a Photo page.

[668] => Darrell
[669] => [670] =>

[671] => Daryl - Tue 20 Nov 2007 23:42:59 #0 [672] =>

Sandpile [673] =>

Wasn't it PawPaw that parachuted with and anvil? Maybe we could arrange a drop:)

[674] => There is a blacksmith on our east coast that had a piece going into a show in Germany, his buddy's brother was a commander of a NATO base there, so they sent the sculpture over with his personal belongings. When the sculpture arrived they realized the show was across the country and there was no way a freight company or the military were going to be able to get it there on time. So he called up base limousine and had it driven to the gallery. The limo arrives at the front steps of the gallery minutes before the show opens, out jump to soldiers in full dress uniform and they march the piece in. The Germany audience was sure impressed with the Canadians, Yep "the Canadians treated their blacksmiths with respect". :) [675] =>

[676] => Steve Parker - Wed 21 Nov 2007 00:05:12 #0 [677] =>

Stuff [678] =>

Hope everyone has a great Thanksgiving.

[679] => Brian C, your utensils are great. They almost as good as the Fe gate.
[680] => Keep up the good work. If John should post a picture of something he made be sure to comment on it as he gets kinda testy if ya don't.(bog)

[681] => The thread on the gas forges is a good one. I am planning to build one for the shop at work as I don't always need the big one to do the job at hand.
[682] => It will be a blown furnace and will run on natural gas.
[683] => I know that most burner designs that are out there are for propane.
[684] => Can I make the burners the same and just change the orifice size?
[685] => I have the new burner book thats out there on the market.
[686] => Not much on natural gas burners in there .

[687] => Steve
[688] =>

[689] => [690] =>

[691] => sandpile - Wed 21 Nov 2007 00:31:45 #0 [692] =>


Y'all have a gooden-- don't over -eat and founder.

[694] => Ones of you that are having to drive for your dinner, keep the shiney side up and watch out for crazies out on the road.

[695] => Happy Thanksging to all.

[696] => chuck [697] =>

[698] => HW - Wed 21 Nov 2007 00:52:35 #0 [699] =>

[700] =>


[701] => I love the Alva gate and fence - but then, I really like scrolls and traditional designs. Great stuff... [702] =>

[703] => grant - Wed 21 Nov 2007 01:01:03 #0 [704] =>

Hey Steve! [705] =>

Not sure what you mean by "orifice". With a blower we usually just dump the gas into the line. Actually, all of my forges for the last 20 or so years admit the gas into the blower, Great mixing! Natural gas is no problem, works about the same as propane in my experience. Takes a little more volume as it has a lower heating value. [706] =>

[707] => Marc - Wed 21 Nov 2007 08:41:53 #0 [708] =>

Natural Gas [709] =>

Chances are that your natural gas is piped in at very low pressure, probably 7" water column. That's about 1/4-PSI, so a blown burner is pretty much the only way to go. And at that low pressure Grant is right - no orifice. Just have an open 1/8 or 1/4-in pipe.

[710] => Another thing, with that low pressure and the relatively high BTUs of the burner, make sure you have some good sized pipe to deliver it to the forge. You lose pressure based on the BTUs/hr, pipe diameter, and length. There are tables out there on the Internet to get you numbers. I would expect at least 3/4" black pipe, maybe 1", to make sure you get the BTUs you need at the burner end. [711] =>

[712] => John Fe - Wed 21 Nov 2007 09:18:19 #0 [713] =>

power hammer [714] =>

I will be bringing a tire hammer to sell at Gichners, in Maryland this Jan if'n any one is interrested.
[715] => Lookin forward to seein every one again and makin a fool outta meself doin the emceein thing. That kills me, what idiot decided to spell MC , emcee ? It's shit like that what cause's all the trouble in this world.hehe [716] =>

[717] => brucegodlesky - Wed 21 Nov 2007 09:51:36 #0 [718] =>

Happy Thanksgiving [719] =>

Hope everyone has a nice holiday filled with gratitude. Get lots of turkey, stuffing and mincemeat.
[720] => Chased bears the last 2 days and I'm whooped. Can't run as far or long as when I was 47. Today is the last day of the season and I'm not gonna be out there tormentin' them.
[721] => Into the forge shop this morning, try to get a half dozen blades made and mebbe a hawk or 2. [722] =>

[723] => Jeff Reinhardt - Wed 21 Nov 2007 10:02:07 #0 [724] =>

[725] =>

Brian C, So I see we have mutually agreed to follow in the path of the great one and whine for all its worth:) I know that a great thing such as that gate must be a years long thing, but have not seen anything posted since. Perhaps that is the very top of the career and simply cannot be topped.

[726] => Grant, all the industrial gas forges I was around used blower mixing. These used blowers made for the use with gas ports on the fan case, with intergral valving to control the gas. In fact I had to scrap several, as I could not give them away. I suspect that there is not a lot of interest in a 6 port forge with each port fed by its own blower and 20 PSI natural gas line, dumping through a 3/4" orifice. Our gas bill dropped by $20,000 a month when we switched to induction on that line.

[727] => To all, have a wonderful Thanksgiving, and be safe out there. [728] =>

[729] => Mills - Wed 21 Nov 2007 11:16:29 #0 [730] =>

[731] =>

Very good Darrell. I shall endeavour to become technically and tactically proficient in the photo application sectionn of this web site. ;)

[732] => Amazing the people who keep popping in, grant, pimpdaddySmith.

[733] => I am thankful that this community exists, it would have been nearly impossible for me to have pursued this vocation alone without the support of those I have met through this medium. May each of you have a wonderful Thanksgiving.

[734] => HW - Thanks. I do like to do them, a lot! I did 300 snub ends out of 3/4x3/8. Had it down to 2 heats, once I developed the tooling. first one tapered, formed the button and started the scroll, driled the hole for the rivet cold and 2nd heat took to the jig rolled it with the rivet, then to another jig for final tweaking. Learned a bit more about heatreating 4140 as well, for bending tools. A lot of the tweaking was done awfully cold sometimes. [735] =>

[736] => John Fe - Wed 21 Nov 2007 12:23:05 #0 [737] =>

pictures [738] =>

Jeff Reinhardt - The reason I haven't posted any pictures of my work lately is cause I know Rich is laying in wait , and as soon as I post a pic he will post some silly posie to divert attention away from mine. He's hated me ever since I was born to poor black folks in a cave under Corning NY known as monkey run. He chased my pappy for years for distillin some nector , but never caught him. He didn't want to arrest him , just get the reciept from him. My daddy was way to quick and smart for him and he finally settaled for the next best thing , some sort of hootch in the Vigin Islands. [739] =>

[740] => Jeff Reinhardt - Wed 21 Nov 2007 13:20:27 #0 [741] =>

[742] =>

John, while Rich may provide a select few with a high grade hootch from the islands, I can't speak to your upbringing or Daddie's hootch. I have tasted Rich's hootch and it is indeed fine. Go on, take a risk, Rich may have a Posie, but we all know better now than to allow a full blown whine storm.

[743] => Home on Vacation today, hickory smoking the Turkey for tommorow at my Mother's house. Man do I love the smell of stuff cooking over hickory. [744] =>

[745] => Brian C. - Wed 21 Nov 2007 13:34:26 #0 [746] =>

fence [747] =>

Mils, that fence is marvelous, especially the crowing glory on top. [748] =>

[749] => Brian C. - Wed 21 Nov 2007 13:36:01 #0 [750] =>

fence [751] =>

That should say "Mills", and "crowning" in the above post.

[752] => Paw Paw always told me "proof then post", sometimes I forget. But I never forget him. :) [753] =>

[754] => grant - Wed 21 Nov 2007 15:29:24 #0 [755] =>

gas, gas, gas, It's a natural gas............... [756] =>


[757] => Yeah, I plumb forgot about THAT low of pressure. Been like thirty years since I had that. Seems to me we ran a full size 1" feed pipe into the air pipe which was probably 2-1/2 or 3". [758] =>

[759] => SGensh - Wed 21 Nov 2007 16:10:10 #0 [760] =>

[761] =>

I hope everyone has a safe and happy Thanksgiving. I know I certainly have much to be grateful for. Thank you to all of you for sharing your work and your ideas during this and the past years.

[762] => A particular thanks to Allen Turner for giving us teh Forgemagic site which I hope can continue. Sparky I hope you are well- let someone know if there is something we can do for you.

[763] => Another thanks to Darrell for doing as he feels is right even in the face of criticism and providing this haven from the spam.

[764] => You guys have been putting some nice looking work in the gallery. I'm glad to see Peyton's photo of Dave Hutchinson and Bill Epps. Dave is the host at his farm for the Gichner Memorial hammer in in January- a deserving winner of that anvil raffle.
[765] => [766] =>

[767] => Darrell - Wed 21 Nov 2007 17:38:29 #0 [768] =>

For Sale [769] =>

Take a look at the For Sale page once in a while. It is being used.

[770] => Happy Thanksgiving to you all.

[771] =>

I will be gone for a couple of days starting Thursday afternoon. [772] => I will be back Saturday evening.

[773] => [774] => Darrell
[775] => [776] =>
[777] => Mills - Wed 21 Nov 2007 18:17:33 #0 [778] =>

[779] =>

Taking a break from writing a story for the newsletter. YOU HEAR THAT DIANE? What else are these dreary days for?

[780] => Thanks BrianC. [781] =>

[782] => Brian C. - Wed 21 Nov 2007 19:12:02 #0 [783] =>

Thanksgiving [784] =>

Happy Thanksgiving to all of you. I am working midnights tonight but I doubt that I will sleep through the entire meal tomorrow. :) [785] =>

[786] => Rutterbush - Wed 21 Nov 2007 20:13:49 #0 [787] =>

[788] =>

I hope everyone who celebrates Thanksgiving is truly thankful and well fed on Thursday.

[789] => I've put some photos in the gallery.

[790] => While I was in the gallery I saw the steel and brass utensils. I now have something that I can point my students to. Very nice.

[791] => Not to leave the rest of you out, all of the pictures are great.

[792] => Where's Mr. Fee's gate? [793] =>

[794] => John Larson - Wed 21 Nov 2007 20:41:23 #0 [795] =>

[796] =>

Happy Thanksgiving everyone. Every year at this time I have been able to clean the leaves outta the eaves troughs, but this year very few trees have lost their leaves. The fall color show on the upper Chesapeake has been gorgeous.

[797] => Made pieces for the sowblock today and then switched to three pairs of Durabar V-guides. I got the V-guides surfaced (the Durabar comes oversized as cast); lotsa chips. Then I took off the big mill vise and installed the auxilliary angle table and got it calibrated for cutting the "V's". Then I quit cuz Moon finally got the new EGR valve installed in the Silverado. Got a call from a customer who has had a long term deposit on a power hammer and now he's ready for one. Invited him to the shop to examine tooling, test drive my Octagon 100, and make decisions.

[798] => [799] =>

[800] => Fred McDaniel - Wed 21 Nov 2007 23:05:34 #0 [801] =>

[802] =>

Happy Thanksgiving everyone, and have a safe one. Fred [803] =>

[804] => Rich Waugh - Thu 22 Nov 2007 00:44:16 #0 [805] =>

Happy Thanksgiving [806] =>

Best wishes to all of you for a happy Thanksgiving holiday, and my thanks to al lof you for all that you have shared with me and us. This is truly a great group of people. Heck, I'm feeling so warm and fuzzy I'll even say John fee is a nice guy and makes a helluva fine gate. Hasn't ever made anything else, as far as I know, but that *was* fine gate.

[807] => I do want you to know that I don't resent your poor upbringing in that cave (I thought it was actually a culvert), John. I actually admire you for what you have managed to make of yourself in spite of your humble beginnings and many other shortcomings. When I grow up I want to be just like you, only not so damn short. You'll take note, I'm sure, of the fact that I have not made any gates. I was thinking about doing one, but then I saw yours and decided I shouldn't try to imitate the master. (GRIN)

[808] => Almost all the work I've been doing lately has been in silicon bronze. Really great stuff to work with, once you get over the sticker shock of buying it. $15/lb for the stuff, and that's the Stateside price, before shipping. Ouch! But man, that stuff sure is pretty. If I can work up the energy I may post a picture of one of the goofy jobs I've been working on. Or, if Fee posts a picture of something he's made, I'll post almost anything I can find. :-)

[809] => Thanks, everyone. [810] =>

[811] => Brian C. - Thu 22 Nov 2007 03:36:40 #0 [812] =>

[813] =>

Rutterbush-thanks, glad you liked the utensils.

[814] => The church screen is absolutely beautiful. Great work. [815] =>

[816] => Jeremy K - Thu 22 Nov 2007 08:31:04 #0 [817] =>

Rich W [818] =>

Rich - What is the # of the silicon bronze you are using and what # filler rod are you using(assuming your welding it[tig])? I have been thinking of working with some but have no knowledge of the alloys to use with what fillers for the best color match.

[819] => I hope everyone has a great day today and eats like theres no tomorrow. Life is short eat like a king - JK [820] =>

[821] => John Odom - Thu 22 Nov 2007 09:01:59 #0 [822] =>

Happy Thanksgiving to All! [823] =>

Silicon Bronze is great to work with. I haven't forged any, but I made some castings a few years ago, using Everdur brand alloy ingots and wire. It was fun to work with and the welds were a perfect color match. I thought it was expensive then, the ingots cost me about $5/lb. I still have one ingot of anout 20 lb. [824] =>

[825] => Jeff Reinhardt - Thu 22 Nov 2007 11:06:27 #0 [826] =>

[827] =>

Happy Thanksgiving to all.
[828] => I am so blessed to be off to my mothers, for a gathering of the clan, for a fine meal in a warm house, in a free country. Blessed by the luck of birth into a paradise on this very earth.
[829] => May I wish to each and all of you a safe and happy Holiday? And remind all to think a little of the Sons and Daughters, Fathers and Mothers, Wives and Husbands, far from home, serving to protect what we have here?
[830] => And to all those who have served, Welcome home, thank you for your service. [831] =>

[832] => Tom C - Thu 22 Nov 2007 11:18:09 #0 [833] =>

[834] =>

Louise & I wish everyone a happy Thanksgiving! Like John Odom I am especially thankful for this bunch of friends & this forum.

[835] => Tom C [836] =>

[837] => John Fe - Thu 22 Nov 2007 11:31:14 #0 [838] =>

Thankxgivin [839] =>

The birds a cookin and I'm a droolin.
[840] => I believe we all have much to be thankfull for.
[841] => I would like to personaly thank Al Gore for inventing the internet so I was able to meet all of yoze here.
[842] => Weathers nice here (Corning NY) rite now but is spodda turn shitty a little later with rain/sleet/snow.

[843] => Took my 88 Honda off the road the other day, she was getting a little tender in spots. Bought a 2001 Daewoo with 38000miles on it . So far I like it, 29 mile per gal:-)

[844] => Have a great day every one. [845] =>

[846] => HW - Thu 22 Nov 2007 11:48:09 #0 [847] =>

[848] =>

Happy Thanksgiving to all and especially to families with members in the Armed Forces. This is the first year we have had one overseas so it will be a real Thanksgiving that he has been kept safe thus far.

[849] => It's forty here with 35 mph winds so I'm going out to the shop to fry the turkey.

[850] => Take care...H [851] =>

[852] => brian robertson - Thu 22 Nov 2007 12:33:07 #0 [853] =>

knife ? [854] =>

Calling all blade makers. I use the adage "forge thick-grind thin" when making hoof knives; my only blade making, out of 5160.

[855] => I've been asked to make very small wood carving tools, so I need to ask, how thin can I forge without ruining the 5160? Is whet stone grinding my best option to bringing down to size? Anyheat treating hints for tiny stuff? Is there a better steel to use than 5160? thanks [856] =>

[857] => Joe Rollings - Thu 22 Nov 2007 12:59:35 #0 [858] =>

Brian's blades [859] =>

I make drill busings for fixtures from 5160, or rather make the whole top of the fixture from it, and when I'm done machining and drilling the holes, I torch heat the part around the hole and then blast my airgun through the hole to harden the hole only against wear. Never had a crack or a soft part doing it this way. You might want to airstream-quench light blades that way. Also, how small are the blades. I might have a bunch of small 1095 scrap from sawing out knife blades. also a bunch of w1 drill rod stamp blanks that are about 1/4"x 2 3/4" that the designs came out wrong. If you want it, I'll send you an envelope full for the price of shipping. If you want it, specify how large it has to be to be usefull. No point in paying shipping on scrap that is REALLY scrap....Joe [860] =>

[861] => Joe Rollings - Thu 22 Nov 2007 13:06:52 #0 [862] =>

Oh, Yeah [863] =>

I forgot. To find out how thin you can go, just forge out a bit of scrap and harden, then start filing the thin edge back before temering. When you have reached the end of the de-carb zone the file will no longer be interested in feeding from the stock. If you oven harden the stock to the proper temp, you won't lose much at all. I pre-grind knives to a pretty thin edge before hardening and then file back the edge to where it is glass-hard. THis also takes out any wavy stuff that I ground into the edge the first time. Often, the edge will only be about 1/16 thick when I hit the hard stuff. The decarb on the sides and back of the blade will be really thin and you can tell when you have sanded through it by the change in the sparks...JOe [864] =>

[865] => Jim Fecteau - Thu 22 Nov 2007 13:18:59 #0 [866] =>

WOW [867] =>

I've been straight out with work and have not had a chance look at the site lately.
[868] => Lots of great stuff in the gallery.
[869] => Thanks all for sharing.
[870] =>
[871] => Speaking of sharing. I asked a while back about glass for fireplace screens. You all answered...... Here is what I got to add to that. All this came from me being able to ask the right questions to the right people..... Thanks for all the input.

[872] => This is from Charlie Burke - Swift Glass Co.

[873] => Jim,
[874] =>
[875] => If you want to make sure that the glass doesn't break from a heat related issue in the fireplace, then I suggest you use a cermaic glass called Robax or Pyroceram (same thing but different manufacturers). This glass does have an amber tint to it and it used in most woodstove/ fireplace applications. Tempered Pyrex, although good for high temperatures will end up losing the temper due to the constant heating and cooling from the fire and eventually break. The ceramic material is 5mm (.187") thick and we can ship it out to you in about 1 1/2 weeks. the price for 2 pcs is $180.00each .

[877] => Happy Thanksgiving
[878] => JIM
[879] =>
[880] => [881] =>

[882] => Marc - Thu 22 Nov 2007 13:22:49 #0 [883] =>

Thanksgiving [884] =>

Well, my son came up from PA yesterday. This morning he cooked pancakes. The pumpkin pie came out of the oven an hour ago, and now his pumpkin whoopie pies are baking. The cranberry chutney is done and the turkey goes in the oven after that. He loves to cook and I love it when he comes up.

[885] => Son #2 will be coming down with his new(ish) bride later to help consume some of the above. Family coming in later in the day for leftovers. This is a wonderful holiday.

[886] => It's great that we have a couple days to give thanks for all we've been blessed with.

[887] => Happy Thanksgiving to all! [888] =>

[889] => Jim Fecteau - Thu 22 Nov 2007 13:23:35 #0 [890] =>

More to the WOW [891] =>

I forgot to mention that I asked for advice/quote on 2 pieces of tempered Pyrex glass 18" x 36"
[892] => JIM [893] =>

[894] => brian robertson - Thu 22 Nov 2007 13:33:47 #0 [895] =>

tiny blades [896] =>

Thanks for the quick response/
[897] => the blades and gouges are less than 3/16" wide and a taper down from 1/8" to nothing 1/4" long. Look like oversized engraving tools.
[898] => I figure to use a heated block as an anvil set on the corner of the forge or for the gouges I'll grind some die blocks.

[899] => I use an oven for tempering but it won't go hot enough to harden. What kind of oven were you referring to?

[900] => With an air quench on 5160, if you direct the air stream to the cutting edge only can you keep the spine softer/tougher?

[901] => The customer wants fair large handles on these to push on. The commercially available ones are too small for his hands. His work is amazing, mind blowing in the detail, reminds me of ancient Asian stuff.

[902] => [903] =>

[904] => John Larson - Thu 22 Nov 2007 15:03:48 #0 [905] =>

[906] =>

Winterized the house in the past two hours. Removed the pair of window ac units and put in the storm windows. Once again, we only ran the air conditioners for 3-4 days. Before that I spent 4 hours in the shop doing the v-grooves in three pairs of V-guides. I cleaned up the mess on the mill again. That stuff is horribly abrasive in small particle form and carbon shedding so using lubricant while machining is a definite no-no. Had to get things squeaky clean so I can make normal chips and use coolant. Buddy Dominick finally was getting some forge time this morning, practicing forge welding cable, mild steel, and hacksaw blades. Pretty good for a beginner. That forge table I made for him and the rectangular firepot work super. Now its almost time to go to daughter's house next door and begin the feast. [907] =>

[908] => Joe Rollings - Thu 22 Nov 2007 17:45:14 #0 [909] =>

Brian [910] =>

I use a burn-out oven made for casting jewelry to harden. Any electric kiln with a temp control or a simple pyrometer in it will suffice. Make sure the part you are hardening is the same height as the sensor in the oven. Hot and cold spots abound in hi-temp ovens if they are not top quality. I temper in a common kitchen oven. Although they are often not accurate, you can double check with a candy thermomoter and while you might not be at the perfect tempreture, you can test the blades and will ususally find that when you get the temper right and record the tepreture you used that the oven setting WILL be repeatable if not exactly what it says. It will maintain the error time after time and be predictable in most cases. Very thin blades can be tempered to a lesser tempreture and still survive, as thinner material will flex before breaking while thicker material of the same hardness will break before flexing.

[911] => Edge-only hardening might be a problem on a part that small, but you can always try it. I'd think it would depend on how you hold your mouth when doing it and it might not be repeatable(chuckle).

[912] => One other thing. I think you are going to need to keep the blade on the end of a larger stick or rod until after it is hardened. A tiny little thing like that will quench down just from being picked out of the hardening oven with a light pair of tongs, so you need to leave a bit of the original material on the blade to handle it by until it is quenched properly.

[913] => Let me know if you want some of that scrap....Joe [914] =>

[915] => sandpile - Thu 22 Nov 2007 18:35:58 #0 [916] =>

Small knife blades [917] =>

BRIAN- It would easyier to use A2 or if you are quick to the quench tank, O1. My preference would be A2 because of the Air quench. 52100 will Air quench to a certain extent. Of the stainless --440 being the most common AQs. D2 is a good steel and it Air quenches.

[918] => The reason for the air quenching is because it hard to get small pieces in a liquid quench at the right temp.

[919] => forge thick and grind thin is still the best way.

[920] => chuck [921] =>

[922] => Rich Waugh - Thu 22 Nov 2007 22:47:16 #0 [923] =>

Jeremy K - Silicon Bronze [924] =>


[925] => I'm using alloy C65500, also called High Silicon Bronze. 97% Cu/3% Si, less than a smidgen of any other trace elements. The filler rod for it is the same alloy. I do TIG weld it when necessary, though I've only had to do that to repair one screw-up I made, and to weld up some corner brackets. Almost all the work has been hot-forged or cold worked, with mechanical fasteners. The stuff welds wonderfully, no visible seam at all. It can also be gas welded, which I used to do, but the TIG is safer and cleaner.

[926] => I posted two pictures of a project I'm working on. I'm doing the hardware to decorate an engine cover in a ship so it looks like a pirate's treasure chest. Kind of fun, actually. [927] =>

[928] => Jim Fecteau - Fri 23 Nov 2007 00:24:56 #0 [929] =>

Treasure [930] =>

Nice job Rich. They'd be dumb not to have a nice pad lock on that chest.
[931] => JIM [932] =>

[933] => Steve Parker - Fri 23 Nov 2007 01:05:30 #0 [934] =>

Gas [935] =>

Grant and Marc, I am wanting this furnace for work. I have plenty of gas pressure.
[936] => Something like 30lbs of line pressure in a 1 1/2 line.
[937] => I know that my present furnace uses an 1/4 pipe for the gas feed into a 2 inch pipe with compressed air for the forced air source. All the gas and all the air I could need.
[938] => I am wanting to build a smaller furnace for use when I don't need the big one.
[939] => I also want this furnace to have two burners.
[940] => I was looking at the fans with the ports on them for gas mixing and thought that would be a good choice as I really want this furnace to be much quieter than the other one that runs on compressed air. Sounds like a jet engine.
[941] => I have built a few propane furnaces in the past. Just never messed with natural gas.

[942] => Steve [943] =>

[944] => Rudy - Fri 23 Nov 2007 02:48:30 #0 [945] =>

Real tricky question [946] =>

I get the feeling some of the posters here have experience w metals analysis, etc.

[947] => I have the chance to pick up a Shimadzu spectrometer for $100. Dual beam and capable of reflectance and absorption, UV vis. It includes the manual (copyright 1990) and the manual for the computer interface software (no software). It appears to work fine EXCEPT: It has a built in monitor that does not work. All of the fuses are intact, so I suspect the monitor is just plain gone. It is about 8x6 inches and a 240 x 320 dot monochrome.

[948] => The question: How difficult or even possible is it to disconnect the dead monitor and hook up another monitor (NOT the same model, etc.) and make it work? Does anyone know the compatibility requirements of televisions, monitors, etc? Am I dreaming or could a good geek come up w some kind of kludge that would make this thing useable?

[949] => When new I suspect this was a $20,000 machine. Used ones that don't work are selling elsewhere for 2 - 4,000. If I can get this to work for less than $1,000 I'm in hog heaven when it comes to finding out what alloy my mystery metal treasure is made of.

[950] => [951] =>

[952] => Marc - Fri 23 Nov 2007 07:44:10 #0 [953] =>

Natural gas [954] =>

Steve, it sounds like you're all set with pressure. The quietest forge I ever saw (and kind somewhat heard :-) was a natural gas, blown, forge. This was a big one, four burners, and maybe 3 - 4 feet wide and 1-1/2 ft deep. It's been a while. But he ran low pressure. The nozzles on his burners were the kind with the concentric pipes. With all four burners going, you could hold a normal conversation right in front. OK, maybe not directly in front - that thing got hot.

[955] => But, other than that, I have no experience with NG.

[956] => Then there's Jymm Hoffman's burner. I believe his squished-down pipe keeps things quieter. You just need a faster blower for it.

[957] => --Marc
[958] => [959] =>

[960] => John Odom - Fri 23 Nov 2007 08:37:37 #0 [961] =>

Spectrometer [962] =>

Rudy, you say the spectrometer is for reflectance and absorbtion in the UV/Vis. Most metal analysis is done by emission,. not reflection or absorbtion.

[963] => I spend a lot of time puting instruments the boss buys at auction into service. Sometimes, but not often it is easy. Usually it is very difficult. Most of the newer instruments, at least since the mid '90s are dependent on their software just to operate. All that said, I would spend the $100, since I could at least use it for parts on one down the road, and we do absorbtion and reflectance spectroscopy on non=metallic samples.
[964] => [965] =>

[966] => Jeremy K - Fri 23 Nov 2007 09:35:02 #0 [967] =>

Rich W [968] =>

Rich - The straps look very good for the chest. Where are you purchasing the bronze / filler from? The only reason I ask is - it would save a bunch of...I'm doing this and that with the sales person and it'd be easier to buy from someone who knows about selling to someone who's doing the same kind of work with it you are. Does that make sense?

[969] => Anyhow - looks a bit chilly out this morning(low 20's) - better make my presents in the world - well in the shop anyway. I plan on staying home all day so as to avoid any wild shoppers on the road. - JK
[970] => [971] =>

[972] => Jeff Reinhardt - Fri 23 Nov 2007 09:49:50 #0 [973] =>

[974] =>

Rich, very nice work on the chest hardware. But I thought you were going to wait till Fe put a photo up:)

[975] => I sorta knew it would happen, I said on this site a few days ago that I made Japanes garden knives, weeders and rakes as well as the trowels form RR spikes, but that I had not made but a few of anything except the trowels. Well yesterday, at the family dinner, my Sisters the gardeners hit me up to make Japenese garden knives for them, as they want to give them as gifts. So... if the log with 11 trowels stuck in it is a "herd of trowels" what would a log with a bunch of Japanese garden knives be?
[976] => Much colder today, about 29F but clear, off to the forge to make garden knives. [977] =>

[978] => John Fee - Fri 23 Nov 2007 10:21:19 #0 [979] =>

bronze [980] =>

Rich - I bow to the master. Great work , love the hasp. [981] =>

[982] => Larry Zoeller - Fri 23 Nov 2007 10:23:04 #0 [983] =>

John Fe, gas burner building, and gas forge floors [984] =>

John Fe,
[985] => Yes, I have made it over here now; I just got my password from Darrell this morning. To answer you questions concerning building burners this is what I have found. I have found that not all 1/8” x-tra heavy pipe nipples will work. The brand that I use and had the best luck with is called Seminole. I also tried buying a length of 1/8” x-tra heavy pipe and found that they were a real loose fit, so I just say with buying the nipples. I have been using the ¼ -28 tap for the Mig tips and had no problem. I checked in Michael Porters Gas burner book last night and he says to use the ¼ -28 for the Mig tips also. I always check for gas leaks around the contact tip and I have had no problem. I also recommend using Loctite thread sealant on the contact tip and not using Teflon tape.

[986] => I also would like to comment on gas forge floors. The kiln shelf materials make a good gas forge floor but are expensive unless you have a source of cheap or free shelving. I sell 2600 degree fire bricks that a great alterative to the kiln self at a reasonable price. You have to look at the kiln shelf or fire bricks as a consumable because they take a lot of abuse.

[987] => Larry Zoeller
[988] =>
[989] => [990] =>

[991] => GlennM - Fri 23 Nov 2007 10:52:30 #0 [992] =>

NG and floors [993] =>

My friend knife maker got caught up at the bridge shop and the boss allowed him to take his forge in the shop he normally runs at home on LP.I went by after he told me to see how it ran.I was really impressed with it being I had always heard it wasn't as hot because of pressure issues.We welded in the forge all afternoon.His burner is the basic Don Fogg style blown rig.
[994] => My alternative to floors being eaten was to use a rammable refractory and put a drain hole in the bottom.I shape the rammable to a slight dish shape and the flux finds the hole.Ive done little patching in three years. [995] =>

[996] => Marc - Fri 23 Nov 2007 11:08:41 #0 [997] =>

Forge floors [998] =>

I don't do much welding in the forge, so I use insulating firebrick for the floor. When I do want to weld, I've got a sheet of SS I got from the scrap yard, back when you could get stuff from scrap yards. That sheet has lasted me 4 years or so, but maybe actually used only a dozen times.

[999] => I just picked up a SS sink from the dump for free, so I should be set for forge floors for life :-).

[1000] => --Marc
[1001] => [1002] =>

[1003] => Brian C. - Fri 23 Nov 2007 11:26:19 #0 [1004] =>

[1005] =>

Rich Waugh- What John Fee said! [1006] =>

[1007] => Rudy - Fri 23 Nov 2007 12:22:18 #0 [1008] =>

Spectrometer [1009] =>


[1010] => Yeah, I know emission would be the choice, but this is the one I've stumbled onto. And you CAN'T beat the price (by much).

[1011] => Since I'm planning to use it only occasionally, I figure taking the time to dissolve a sample in H2SO4, or doing a really good job of polishing it up might not matter. And I don't need spectacularly good results.

[1012] => Do you think it might do for the job anyway? [1013] =>

[1014] => Rich Waugh - Fri 23 Nov 2007 12:42:21 #0 [1015] =>

Jeremy K - Bronze Supplier [1016] =>

I get mine from Atlas Metals in Denver. They're online at The sales person I deal with there is Kacie Laughrey - she's very helpful and pretty darn sharp. Atlas started out as a metal supplier for artists and metalsmiths, so they know what kind of stuff we do. Their service can't be beat.

[1017] => [1018] =>

[1019] => HW - Fri 23 Nov 2007 13:28:56 #0 [1020] =>

[1021] =>

RtrBrsh and Rich,

[1022] => Fabulous work from both of you. It's a blast when you get to do a project that's just plain fun. Fe and the rest of us will have to step up to the plate if we want to compete... [1023] =>

[1024] => Jeremy k - Fri 23 Nov 2007 14:24:42 #0 [1025] =>

Rich W [1026] =>

Rich - the info is greatly appreciated - Thank You. This will be for a project of my own so I'll have to save some cash now. Thanks again - JK [1027] =>

[1028] => Mills - Fri 23 Nov 2007 14:29:33 #0 [1029] =>

[1030] =>

Rich yes indeedee that is very nice work. I can't make out the detail that you have embossed. How about a close up? What tooling and did you use treadle, hand, power hammer?

[1031] => Frustrating around here. Spent most of the day yesterday trying to reload the OS on this thing. I made it worse. That was the sum of the days efforts. Did find RSmiths treadle hammer anvil pic and designed mine about the same. Today I went to cut the 1 1/2" plate and have really chopped the first edge. I tried to make a sled to go down the guide like a tractor without wheels, I did better by hand on my intial work. Then as I was going by hand I couldn't stay in the 'Zone' and have some nice clean cuts between a lot of @%$^^#$!! Letting the torch cool then will clean the tip reset and try again. Will take another cut at the newsletter article whilst I wait. whoops no it is gone in the reload effort.!! MAYbe..... [1032] =>

[1033] => John Odom - Fri 23 Nov 2007 15:04:20 #0 [1034] =>

Spectrometer [1035] =>

Rudy, it is a lot more complicated than simply dissolving the sample in acid. That is just the first step. Then there is a LOT of wet chemistry to develop the proper color(s) to read. All that isn't easy. I wouldn't use it for metals/alloy ID even if I had it. [1036] =>

[1037] => Rutterbush - Fri 23 Nov 2007 15:22:47 #0 [1038] =>

[1039] =>

Brian C and HW,
[1040] => thanks for the comments on the church screen.

[1041] => HW there are only two R's in RtrBrsh. I'll let you figure it out. (grin)No, I don't care how it's spelled and neither does anyone else.

[1042] => I too am dazzled by Rich's bronze work.

[1043] => Keep up the talk about natural gas forges. I've got a four inch diameter NG line running down the middle of the college of welding knowledge. I've also got a natural gas representative on my advisory board. If I can get approval and the funding I'll look into some gas forges for the blacksmithing classes.

[1044] => Remember that you are an individual just like everybody else. [1045] =>

[1046] => Rudy - Fri 23 Nov 2007 16:53:36 #0 [1047] =>

Spectrometer [1048] =>


[1049] => Thanks for the info. I know the theory of spectrometry, but have zero practical experience and was afraid the situation might be exactly as you said. I would still buy it if I thought there was much chance I could get the CRT to working because the sensor/recording system is what I really need. But I'm not going to go for something that needs TWO major problematic changes.

[1050] => Oh, well, back to haunting the flea markets. [1051] =>

[1052] => grant - Fri 23 Nov 2007 16:54:01 #0 [1053] =>

"I think I got natural gas!!!" [1054] =>

Steve Parker:

[1055] => HP NG will be no problem at all. In my experience noise is a function of hole size. large (single hole) burners are the loudest. Concentric ring burners are pretty quiet and muti-hole burners are very quiet. I think the flame from a forge burner as really just a series of rapid explosions. Small holes make for smaller explosions. Have you seen the "ribbon burners" that glass blowers use, very quiet indeed. These are build as a steel box (maybe 2 X 5) with an inlet in the back for the gas/air mix. The front is cast refratory with a bunch of holes ( 1/4 inch). Some people drill the holes others cast in soda straws to form the holes. The ultimate is "surface combustion" that uses a porus brick with the mixture forced thru from the other side.

[1056] => Oh yeah, Flame length is also a function of hole size and the small holes can give complete combustion in just a couple inches. [1057] =>

[1058] => grant - Fri 23 Nov 2007 17:04:08 #0 [1059] =>

HWooldridge [1060] =>

Nice acorn and leaf! would you have any problem with me making tooling to produce a similar item? I've been thinking of something similar and what you've done has has helped me focus on the swages and flatening die to produce one.

[1061] => Note: when I want to produce something even similar to what I know someone is making, I always like to get their blessing. [1062] =>

[1063] => Ralph Sproul - Fri 23 Nov 2007 19:15:10 #0 [1064] =>

floor on the forge [1065] =>

Larry Zoeller brought up a good point (Great to see you here Larry). He mentions forge floors being looked at as "expendible items". I have to say I agree on using bricks as floor material - as about every six to twelve months I have to change out my forge floor bricks due to the scale build up on them. This creates this glowing sticky substace that looks like your bricks are melting. You fellows who use ramable refractories as floor for flux reasons.........what happens to scale in your ramable floors??? I'm wondering if the ramable is closed pore enough that the scale doesn't stick and you can clean it out/chip it off/etc?? or does it do the same as with bricks and form a layer of glowing goo on you as well?

[1066] => Ralph [1067] =>

[1068] => HW - Fri 23 Nov 2007 19:15:18 #0 [1069] =>

[1070] =>


[1071] => No problem, I'd be flattened - er, I mean flattered. Just be sure and send me a nice set of your tongs...heheh ;-) Seriously, let me know if you want to see the sequence.

[1072] => RutterBUSH, sorry about the FUBAR and thanks for the correction. Unfortunately, I keep seeing "Butterbrush" but that's just my eyes playing tricks on me. I used to be able to see (and type).

[1073] => Very interesting conversation on gas forges. One thing I have also noticed is that a longer mixing pipe seems to help before you dump into the forge - so does some preheat if you can pipe the inlet over the exhaust. My little two burner homemade box with a small blower is about as loud as the typical oxyacetylene torch. Makes some noise but it's no problem to talk over. [1074] =>

[1075] => Jeff Reinhardt - Fri 23 Nov 2007 20:24:11 #0 [1076] =>

[1077] =>

I have a blown ABANA style forge and its not loud that I notice.

[1078] => Brian C. I will be in Lexington at the Hunt Morgan house next Sunday to demo at a garden club sale.

[1079] => Well I have a smaller herd of garden knives I made today. Just 6 and a story board for a spike to trowel/knife. [1080] =>

[1081] => John Larson - Fri 23 Nov 2007 20:42:12 #0 [1082] =>

[1083] =>

Went to an auction today, but when I got back Joe the crane man hired me to fix some stuff and there's more to do tomorrow. He's really self-sufficient so I was actually kinda flattered.

[1084] => I watched the damascus video by Bill Moran produced by the bladesmith society. He indicates he re-invented damascus, but I thought it came outta the metals program at southern Illinois. Maybe someone can clarify. When he quenched a blade he had the sharp edge red hot and the spine wasn't, then he dunked it in oil without stirring. So by extrapolation, on 51XX blades the key may be to selectively heat the edge and then air quench it overall. His selection of metals for damscus blades was two parts mild steel and one part O-1. He went to 3-6-12-24-48-96-292 layers as I recall (maybe 584). Used a metallurgical coal (coked) fire and mechanical hammers, a 100# Little Giant with combo dies and a much smaller Champion with fullering dies. He made two knives, a ladder pattern and a maiden's hair pattern. With the coal fire he recommends keeping the billet being forge welded to about 3" length so that the billet doesn't extend out of the fire's hot zone. I wasn't enthused about the ladder pattern, but the maiden's hair technique and results are quite interesting. The maiden's hair technique involves squaring the billet after it is drawn out a bit, and then doing a very tight and uniform twist, before flattening it and forging the blade shape. He used a belt sander and then he used hydrochloric acid as the etchant; and after a water dip he rubbed a lot of pasty baking soda on it to neutralize. The vcr tape is really well edited and Moran gives out much information. [1085] =>

[1086] => GlennM - Fri 23 Nov 2007 21:16:36 #0 [1087] =>

Scaling [1088] =>

Ralph, I have not noticed any scale problem in my forges.I run them on the rich side to begin with.What scaling I have happens from the forge to the anvil.Wet forging usually takes care of that.During the last normalizing if there is much scale I will flux it a bit and it brushes right off.Now the scale that does seep out with the flux when coming up to welding temp dissolves and flows out with the flux.I don't do much cleanup on the pieces as I used to.The flux dissolves scale and rust.It saves me a lot of prep time.
[1089] =>
[1090] => Another note on blown rigs.Doc Batson says you need at least one elbow to get the proper gas, air mix.I see a lot of folks putting their inlet fitting right in the elbow going into the tube.That actually kills the mixing action of the elbow right off the bat.He's the PHD in rocket science so I will go along with him.
[1091] =>
[1092] => If I were a betting man I'd probably say Fikes and Fogg were doing pattern welded steel before Moran. At least doing it during the same time period.He just happened to be the one who laid claim to it. [1093] =>

[1094] => brucegodlesky - Fri 23 Nov 2007 22:57:02 #0 [1095] =>

burner [1096] =>

Check out the burner picture I posted. No elbow, .035 mig tip. Welds great!! [1097] =>

[1098] => GlennM - Fri 23 Nov 2007 23:08:28 #0 [1099] =>

[1100] =>

Thats a nice burner Bruce.I like the adjustable air and if I ever have the need for a venturi it will be very similar. [1101] =>

[1102] => sandpile - Fri 23 Nov 2007 23:09:34 #0 [1103] =>

burner [1104] =>

BRUCE-- No doubt MIKE got his(knowing Mike)parts from the scrap yard,--- what with the rust and what have you. BUTTT the board in the bracing of the burner, that looks a little Hill-billy----has THOMAS P. been over there.GRIN-- Course could have been MILLS.

[1105] => Makes no difference--longs as it works ......grin

[1106] => Chuck [1107] =>

[1108] => Joe Rollings - Fri 23 Nov 2007 23:36:29 #0 [1109] =>

Rudy...spectrometers [1110] =>

I know about as much about spectrometers as I know about.....Uh, well I don't know anything about them, except there are 49 of them on Ebay selling from $14 to 50 grand. Old, new, basic, fancy, surplus, working, broken and unknown. They are under a seperate catagory and when you type in "spectrometer" in the search bar and find the first one, you can go to the upper right side of the listing and click on the catagory and see all 49 in a row....Joe [1111] =>

[1112] => HW - Sat 24 Nov 2007 00:09:41 #0 [1113] =>

Propane $ [1114] =>

OK - here's a nasty piece of information. For a long while, I've been paying around $60 for a 25 gallon propane fill here in Central Texas. In fact, I bought one about a month ago and it was $65 - today it was $100!!! I can see a bounce here and there but this is damn near double. The girl taking the money at the distributor just laughed and said "c'est la vie" but I was not amused. Anyone else seen this kind of jump overnight? [1115] =>

[1116] => Jymm Hoffman - Sat 24 Nov 2007 00:09:57 #0 [1117] =>

Rammed Floors [1118] =>

I found the ram refractory to be the closest thing to a miracle floor. The scale and flux will puddle up on this stuff. It can be scraped out while hot or chipped out when cold. Depends on timing and if I think it should be done and when I remember to do it. I have changed the floor once in my first small 2 burner because I thought I should after numerous upper relinings. I had used it almost every day for over 2 years. It proved to be not necessary. I did try kiln shelf and it needed replaced, less often than fire brick, but still needed replacement every 8 to 12 months. Nothing lasts forever. I found ram to be the longest lasting and relatively inexpensive, especially if you have to buy kiln shelf. [1119] =>

[1120] => brucegodlesky - Sat 24 Nov 2007 00:11:39 #0 [1121] =>

[1122] =>

Actually, Mike built this'un from new parts. It sets in an open forge so gets some exposure to the elements. I have it fueling a forge built from half a hotwater heater. We figgered the larger volume would give a better more even burn.
[1123] => The forgwe sat on 2 4x4s for over 3 yrs till they burnt prit near thru. I finally stuck a sheet of steel underneath. [1124] =>

[1125] => brucegodlesky - Sat 24 Nov 2007 00:27:00 #0 [1126] =>

[1127] =>

shoulda said .. it sets in an open air forge shop [1128] =>

[1129] => Jim Fecteau - Sat 24 Nov 2007 01:10:04 #0 [1130] =>

Broke Beaudry [1131] =>

The spring on my 150# Beaudry broke today. I posted some pictures............... A bad day for sure. I need to forge new arms for it. But, before I do I'd like to ask the forum a few questions about steels I should/ could use:
[1132] => The spring arms are 20" long and probably 12 of those inches do all the flexing. The head has elliptical ramps that the pocket bearings set in/ rid on. Those ramps make the springs flex 3/4 of an inch from top to center to bottom of that elliptical shape.
[1133] => SO what I'm getting at is dose someone out the know if 4140 would take that flex? I forgot to mention that that 12" is a 3" wide taper that starts at 1 1/2" and goes to 7/8."
[1134] => I ask that Question because I'm in New England and we do not have that big a stock in 5160 or 5360. Ralph Sproul has 4140
[1135] => at his shop ripe for the taking ............. I mean buying.
[1136] => Anyway I would appreciate an answer as I"m dad in the water without that hammer. I've got work up to my ears that will be setting around till this gets resolved............ It's got me nerved up for sure.
[1137] => THANKS JIM [1138] =>

[1139] => Jim Fecteau - Sat 24 Nov 2007 01:21:07 #0 [1140] =>

Broke Beaudry [1141] =>

I forgot to mention: If this 4140 dose not pan out, does anyone know where I could get 5160 or 5360?......... I need 2) 1 3/4" x 3" x 20" It obviously could be 2 x 3 x 20 as well as the 1 3/4 would be an odd size. Could even be 1) 40" pcs.
[1142] => Thanks JIM
[1143] => [1144] =>

[1145] => Ralph Sproul - Sat 24 Nov 2007 08:05:38 #0 [1146] =>

Scale & hitting the fan [1147] =>

Glenn M - Having a brick floor would kind of be hard for fluxing to get rid of scale......BUT - I love the idea, as I go 10-20 heats on a part and have to vinegar/acid dip/or wire brush to clean........scale removal by flux might be an option on some things. Are you using a kiln shelf or ramamble as a floor? Thanks for this suggestion to a guy who always just goes in to geterdone and doesn't pay much attention to new stuff - but is really willing to learn how to save some time.

[1148] => HW - My take on an oil man in the white house is that when Steel doubled in four months and no one instituted the "Fair Trades Act" - that was just to test the you've seen many things follow - Diesel go from $1.35/gal to $3.35/gal, Copper has quadrupled this year, Gas has been just as bad as fuel, tool steel has double/tripled, propane is just following suit. Being as Nothing was done early on with the laws in our counrty to protect us against this - inflation is skyrocketing out of control and if your concerned ..........I'd say you dam well better am I. They hand us a crock of shit with this 3% inflation rate........I'd say it's more in the 50% range myself with the consumables I've had to purchase that have changed price quickly. When Electric supply companies and welding companies have to check daily about the price of copper to sell wire and welding leed .....something is certainly in the wind and I truely believe it's the shit from a very large fan that it just hit. I won't mention names - but we all know where this is going and where it came from. The magic question is "who can clean up this mess?". Right now the working man is in very serious trouble and the elderly like I mentioned in a post last week after my propane delivery are way beyond in trouble - their screwed. My propane jumped 40 cents per gallon on the last delivery and I purchased 200 gallons so I got a decent price - but the owner of the fuel company I've done lots of work for says we aren't going to be able to hold that price for long - be prepared for paying more. Keeping up with the changes in business and figuring what to charge lately is getting to be fairly consuming - I'm finding if you bid to make a good profit you don't get the work - if you bid on the prices you bought your steel and materials at - you don't have the option of replacing them for the same amount(you loose again - big surprise). I would catagorize this as "Unstable" at best.

[1149] => Ralph [1150] =>

[1151] => Marc - Sat 24 Nov 2007 08:37:21 #0 [1152] =>

Propane burners [1153] =>

I've found that the difference between a top-notch, state-of-the-art burner and one made from scrap yard is pretty small, maybe not noticeable by me. Keep in mind, though, that the most technical burner I've ever worked with was the one on some commercial farrier forge. I'm sure there are some measurements you can make that show a huge difference, but they all seem to suck propane at the same rates. But with all the different flares, nozzles, mixers,... it seems that it all boils down to dumping a bunch of propane in a pipe and lighting it.

[1154] => There's another nozzle out there, a Giberson head ceramic head, that, according to them, keeps things nice and quiet. It's a big, 3-inch, ceramic cap full of holes. I would expect it does what they claim it to do. They aren't cheap, though, at $150. Check out

[1155] => One of their burners, a "Papa Bear" ribbon burner is good for 300,000 - 600,000 BTUs/hr! I could heat my neighborhood with that :-) And they have some charts on orifice sizes versus pressure and BTU output.

[1156] => Another interesting site is Ward burners, They sell burners of all types there and lots of great free technical info.

[1157] => [1158] =>

[1159] => Ralph Sproul - Sat 24 Nov 2007 08:46:08 #0 [1160] =>

Sping Steel - Supplier? [1161] =>

I see Jim's note about the Beaudry arm breaking (I fixed three years ago) - good thing I didn't give it a life time warranty - but he got three good years out of it.

[1162] => I have 12 days work to do in 10 days for a delivery deadline - so this arm breaking now is not great timing. Jim as always is welcome to all tools in my shop and use of the Nazel as he knows how to run it. This being said - does anyone have the stock Jim mentions to purchse from you? or does someone know of a supplier where some spring steel in this 2x3x 20 could be purchased. I'm more than willing to have him here using the large hammer to get his hammer up and running to take care of his family........any suggestions for large spring stock appreciated as we've struck out locally in our search for the material.

[1163] => Ralph [1164] =>

[1165] => Ralph Sproul - Sat 24 Nov 2007 08:56:53 #0 [1166] =>

Dudley Giberson [1167] =>

Marc - Dudley lives about 4 miles from my shop. He's up in Warner(next town over). I welded up a well casing extension on his place a few years back and asked if I could swing back and have a burner conversation - his eye's lit up. Maybe we ought to do a field trip. I happen to have one of those burner heads upstairs.......hold on to your wallet when you fire it up - it's the huge one (hence why it's upstairs). One point is they tend to work GREAT in a Glass kiln with the ceramics as the kiln heats and cools slowly due to all the thermal mass of the kiln,pottery, frame, etc. In a forge - the cooling and heating, cooling and heating being much faster than a kiln ........they crack. Food for thought before purchse. For glass yes, or design the burner entry in an area that will stay hot the longest (above?). Something to consider on a $150 nozzle. He does make a really nice ceramic nozzle for sure and has been involved in glass blowing and kiln building for many years.

[1168] => Ralph [1169] =>

[1170] => GlennM - Sat 24 Nov 2007 09:06:27 #0 [1171] =>

RE:Scale & hitting the fan [1172] =>

Yes Ralph I use rammable in any forge that does welding.Some smaller forges just for forging I get by with just wool and rigidizer.I have even thinned down the rammable to a paintable paste and coated the wall of the main welding forge.Now flux that drips off going in the port onto the wall just runs down to the floor.It gives the wool a hard shell and helps prevent poking holes in it.I laughed at Don Fogg once as he was heat treating a blade in my forge at Madison conference.One trick is to bury the tip of the blade in the wool to keep it cool until the rest of the blade reaches critical temp.He finally figured out something was going on and asked what the hell is the forge lining made from. Just to let you know where I get rammable I did a quick look in the yellow pages for boiler repair.Found a local guy and had 100 pound boxes.Best I remember a 100 pounds was like 50 bucks.
[1173] => I also agree with stuff hitting the fan.To ease off on propane use I bought a 1/4 ton of coal yesterday and it was bagged in 100 pound burlap bags by a crippled 72 year old man.We asked him why he was still working.His answer was simple.Just can't make it with just SS.I found another shovel and helped fill bags.
[1174] => I work for a machine shop/ welding repair thats been in this town for near 60 years.The steel rack is only carrying basic stuff nowadays.I hear the boss a lot of occasions on the phone telling a customer he can get it the next day.Got a letter from one of our suppliers saying to prepare for another increase again. I wonder what is going on with this country. [1175] =>

[1176] => Marc - Sat 24 Nov 2007 09:12:40 #0 [1177] =>

Giberson [1178] =>

HI, Ralph. I saw he was in Warner, but didn't know he was right next door. That would be a fun field trip. I never thought about the cracking, though. Makes sense. I wonder if something like it can be done in stainless steel?

[1179] => One thing I've changed on my forge is my burner placement. The end of the burner nozzle is outside the forge by about 1/4-inch, and there's a 1/4-inch clearance around the nozzle. Actually, at the moment, there's a huge clearance. I went with Jymm Hoffman's squished nozzle and haven't filled in the space yet. This is something that was suggested at the Ward site for the kiln people. It sucks in the air from around the nozzle.

[1180] => One side effect is that the nozzle lasts forever. I'm just using mild steel and it's showing no scaling at all. Mainly because it never enters the forge atmosphere and barely gets to a black heat.

[1181] => [1182] =>

[1183] => Ellen - Sat 24 Nov 2007 10:02:12 #0 [1184] =>

5160 [1185] =>

I have bought 5160 from Admiral Steel, not sure what sizes they stock now, but delivery was reasonably fast, I bought 2" X 1/4" X 8' and some smaller sizes.

[1186] => Prices-propane, steel, etc. Not only are we being screwed on inflation in these areas, but they are trying to give amnesty to 20+million Mexican workers who take jobs from Americans. I have clients in the construction trades: roofers, electricians, plumbers, who can't get work because the contractors will hire $8 to $10/hr Mexicans first. I have a relative, a young man, a whiz with computers and a Masters degree who keeps getting his salary cut and is told he can be replaced with a H1B visa worker from India or China if he complains. Something has got to be fixed! Lou Dobbs is right on. End of rant.

[1187] => Windy this AM, much cooler, need to buy propane this AM, hope I can afford it. [1188] =>

[1189] => HW - Sat 24 Nov 2007 12:28:47 #0 [1190] =>

Jim F hammer [1191] =>

Here's my take on the Beaudry in 25 words or less...

[1192] => Weld the old spring again to get up and going. In the meantime, find enough material for TWO springs and make two alike - as identical as possible and I would use 5160 or something similar. Make them as precisely as you can and send out for professional heat treat (unless you have the facilities and are comfortable doing it). Replace the old ones and keep them as spares.

[1193] => Ralph, I'm sad to say you probably hit all the nails on the head. [1194] =>

[1195] => Joe Rollings - Sat 24 Nov 2007 14:22:05 #0 [1196] =>

beaudry and the state of the union [1197] =>

If you can cobble it back together long enough you prob'ly could forge weld a new one from layers of 5160 leaf spring. Ambitious, yes, but think of the bragging rights.

[1198] => As to the price of stuff, I don't think they are lying about the inflation rate, just being evasive. All the little crap that flows out of the stores nowadays that is cheap as dirt comes from China. An A.C. oil filter sells for the same amount it sold for in 1964. Computers keep getting cheaper. Food has probably never been so affordable. On the other hand, anything that you MUST have to do more than survive is going crazy! My new house (1000 S.F. has over $500 in wiring and recepticals, etc. I am dreding filling up the profane tank to the point I am considering putting in another wood stove. Average inflation probably is what they say it is, but the stuff you need to have a life instead of just live is going out of sight. As to the import stuff, I can't quite understand why it would be a bad thing to charge other countries for access to the finest and largest marketplace in the world. We pay for access to that marketplace by keeping it what it is in terms of educating the children, fixing the roads, policing the streets and all the other costs involved in maintaining a prosperous and orderly society. Our country began it's life and lived a long time supported by tarifs, etc. Now all of a sudden we owe it to the rest of the world to give them free access, and they still screw us into the ground every chance they get. Time to look at who our friends are...Joe [1199] =>

[1200] => Joe Rollings - Sat 24 Nov 2007 14:27:22 #0 [1201] =>

spring steel [1202] =>

I forgot to mention that if you have any mining operations in the neighborhood, you might find a leaf spring from a haul truck that would do the trick. Also, the beams from plows and the like are often spring steel...Joe [1203] =>

[1204] => Ellen - Sat 24 Nov 2007 16:55:31 #0 [1205] =>

Propane [1206] =>

It was $2.35 per gallon here this AM plus our 8.3% sales tax. Just under $60 to fill up a 23 gallon tank (also known as a 100# tank).

[1207] => WSJ has propane futures going out to next July and delivery then is for $1.38/gal. Friday's spot price was $1.57 a gallon. So it should go down in price next summer.....maybe.

[1208] => I second the motion to weld the spring and get the hammer running while you seek suitable material for new springs.... [1209] =>

[1210] => Joe Rollings - Sat 24 Nov 2007 18:30:41 #0 [1211] =>

Springs,... another thought [1212] =>

Big truck axles prob'ly would make your springs. Junk yards of the right stripe should have tons of them...Joe [1213] =>

[1214] => Ellen - Sat 24 Nov 2007 18:32:26 #0 [1215] =>

Jeff [1216] =>

Pictures of your gardening knives, rakes and other implements much appreciated. I am hoping to shamelessly copy them for Xmas presents for friends who garden. Thanks! [1217] =>

[1218] => Steve Parker - Sat 24 Nov 2007 18:34:00 #0 [1219] =>

Gas and stuff [1220] =>

Thanks to all that chimed in on the gas burners. I have made some burners with concentric rings inside and also put a piece of stainless steel sheet that had a half twist in it that went above the rings, this is supposed to help with the air/fuel mix. They are quiet burners.
[1221] => Guess I just need to have a go at making some burners and see what happens.
[1222] =>
[1223] => Rich, really nice job on the hasp. Beautiful work. Hope the guy keeps coming back to spend more money with you.

[1224] => Steve [1225] =>

[1226] => Jim Fecteau - Sat 24 Nov 2007 20:36:50 #0 [1227] =>

Broke Beaudry [1228] =>

HW and all
[1229] => HW ................. That's what's going to happen. Thanks for setting things strait. I need it!!
[1230] => Steve Parker called today and will be forging the arms for me sometime this week.
[1231] => He will see what is available in the yard that will do the job. In the meantime I need to weld the broke arm back together and since Ralph did the original weld job (lasted 4 years. YES HE IS GOOD) and I was looking over his shoulder asking more questions then a 4 year old, I learned enough that It will last till I get the new ones up and running. I HOPE..............
[1232] => I've just got off the Phone with a buddy that works at a machine shop in Burlington VT that has 2 rockwell testers so I'll be driving the good spring arm over to his place in the am.
[1233] => So the way I hope it will go.............
[1234] => I get the good arm tested for hardness.
[1235] => Weld, grind and get the broke arm up and running monday.
[1236] => Monday night get good arm for tuesday jig building for press bending/ install/ test run .
[1237] => Work as usual till package shows up here with Steve's God sent handy work.
[1238] => Mill bearing pockets / clearance pockets
[1239] => Bring to Ralph's to bend on his press.
[1240] => Send for heat treat to desired Rockwell hardness.
[1241] => Have that place ship the arms to me
[1242] => After all that I'll exhale..................... and repeat what was told to me by Ralph four years ago "you should get Steve Parker to forge a new set of arms so you'll have a spare set just in case. This weld will not last forever."
[1243] => Thanks all
[1244] => [1245] =>

[1246] => John Larson - Sat 24 Nov 2007 20:48:36 #0 [1247] =>

[1248] =>

No one corrected my arithmetic! Moran went 3-6-12-24-48-96-192-384 in 8 welding episodes. Thinking about the number of layers today, I decided that if you use thicker material (Moran used three 1/2" thick pieces in the first weld and always welded together two 3/4" thick billets after that) you need to go more layers (and if you use thinner material you go fewer layers) to get a particular pattern.

[1249] => I installed the v-guides and their ancillary supports today. This is kinda arduous work with lotsa layout, center punching, and whatnot. But its done, except for grease zerks. I also installed the top pivot for the cylinder. I had to remove the aerofoil lifting eye to mag drill the holes for the top pivot. After I had the aerofoil back on, I set the hammer on its side and used the mag drill with annular cutter to cut reliefs in the top cross members for pivot bolt insertion. Bo and lehold I found I had installed the pivot for a 150, so tomorrow I get to do that job over again. What a downer.

[1250] => [1251] =>

[1252] => Jeff Reinhardt - Sat 24 Nov 2007 20:57:32 #0 [1253] =>

[1254] =>

ellen, you are welcome to copy shamelessly or otherwise:) I would not have posted them for my friends on the internet if I did not expect others to copy, just as I do things I see shared.

[1255] => Burn't forge is trying to start a flame war across the street at Jock's. I would suggest a total ignore. [1256] =>

[1257] => Mills - Sun 25 Nov 2007 00:53:14 #0 [1258] =>

[1259] =>

JohnL I think we lost a lot of the anal-ity when we stepped over here. ;) [1260] =>

[1261] => Gavainh - Sun 25 Nov 2007 01:22:27 #0 [1262] =>

Hello [1263] =>

As usual, I'm reading a lot and not posting much. Rudy, John pretty much summed up the spectrometer issue much better than I could. One additional piece of info - we had to replace a screen on a Leco C & S tester - required about 6 hours of work from the Leco technician to get the existing software to work with the repalcement scree which we had purchased from Leco.

[1264] => Looks like I will probably be moving to the Hanover/York area of PA - getting a job offer I can't refuse :) Should be living in interesting times for the next 6 to 8 months. Hope to get a little forge time in tomorrow - could use the relaxation it provides. [1265] =>

[1266] => brucegodlesky - Sun 25 Nov 2007 07:57:50 #0 [1267] =>

[1268] =>

Gavainh, no deer hunting tomorrow?
[1269] => Sorry to hear you're leaving w Pa. It's like another country on that side of the mountains(BOG)
[1270] => btw, did they take any large bruins last week over your way?
[1271] => Had a fella stop yesterday and was complaining it took 3 knives to dress the bear he shot. Asked him why he didn't buy a good'un :-) [1272] =>

[1273] => Rudy - Sun 25 Nov 2007 12:54:31 #0 [1274] =>

Spectrometer [1275] =>


[1276] => Darn. And it was such a good buy too. Next you'll tell me that perfect condition 105 howitzer for $20 isn't such a good idea either. [1277] =>

[1278] => Keith Frey - Sun 25 Nov 2007 12:56:00 #0 [1279] =>

Test [1280] =>

[1281] =>

[1282] => Jymm Hoffman - Sun 25 Nov 2007 14:14:51 #0 [1283] =>

Burners & Getting Gas [1284] =>

The reason why I use the burner tips, incredibly easy to make. My brother is an engineer for Underwriters Laboratories, in the burn department. When wrestling with commercially made burner tips that were wearing out I asked what they did. He said the guys in the shop just flatten a piece of pipe. So I had to try it. It helps to insert a thin piece to act as gauge. I sometimes need to "tweak" one to get them both or all three to light. I use a long chisel and open one up.... And yes, if you don't stick them into the forge for more than a little bit, they normally don't burn out. I found that working with 1 1/2" pipe works well for my systems and the parts are easy to get at an "old fashioned" hardware store near me.

[1285] => A few years ago I signed up for a program with my propane supplier to lock into a price on propane in June, if I agreed to buy a certain amount. I either had to pay up front or get set up on monthly payments. The last 2 years I agreed to buy 1,000 gallons. This year the price is $1.99 per gallon and $60.00 for tank rental. It is about the best rate in our area, and that is delivered, in smaller quantities to fill my 2 125 gallon tanks. My land lord did not like the larger tanks that were more visible, the smaller tanks can go up against the building. Plus the company has great service. They will set up a schedule to keep me full and if I realize I need it sooner, no problem. So, like any other business, if you want the best price, you need to shop around and plan ahead. Other wise you will pay a higher premium. [1286] =>

[1287] => Jymm Hoffman - Sun 25 Nov 2007 14:15:49 #0 [1288] =>

Edit [1289] =>

I should have said, the reason why I use the type of burner tips that I use... [1290] =>

[1291] => John Odom - Sun 25 Nov 2007 16:23:15 #0 [1292] =>

Burners [1293] =>

I, too have enjoyed the burner discussion.

[1294] => Several years ago, on Keenjunk, I posted some of the theoreticla research on pbrners that I found, and did. My hope was to write a set of equations which would permit me to mathematicaly design a burner with known properties.

[1295] => I failed! I did learn a lot, and my burners now, although they still have some "seat of the pants" design features do perform as I intend.

[1296] => Here are some things I think I learned:

[1297] => The big thing is that the mixed gas velocity in the burner barrel must exceed the linear speed of combustion at some point or the flame will pop back. This is easiest to achieve if the gas is speeded up at the end of the barrel by some kind of tip that reduced the cross sectional area of the barrel. I use a concentric ring arrangement, but Jymm's flattened tips are just as good. The flame velocity in the gas mixture is dependent on the temperature, and if the barrel and gas gets hot it may flashback when it runs great cold. If the gas velocity is too high, in a plain cylindrical barrell, the flame will fly off the end of the burner. I conical barrel will always have a place that is the right size, but the flame burning in the barrell overheats and distroys it. "Flares" are a variation on the conical barrel.

[1298] => The range of operation of an atmospheric (venturi) burner depends on the maximum available pressure of the fuel. With high pressure available one can get good mixing and a stable flame over a wide range as the pressure is reduced. With low pressures, one needs a pressureized air supply, I.E. a blower.

[1299] => The chamber size limits the BTU of the burner that can be used. too small, and excess gas becomes dragon's breath and is wasted. [1300] =>

[1301] => Ellen - Sun 25 Nov 2007 18:03:49 #0 [1302] =>

Joe Rollings, Sandpile, etc [1303] =>

Joe: Some nice work on your website!

[1304] => Sandpile, thanks for 52100, much appreciated. Any heat treating tips to share, please?

[1305] => Installed a propane heater in the house today, took half a day but turned out nice.

[1306] => [1307] =>

[1308] => Sandpile - Sun 25 Nov 2007 18:51:47 #0 [1309] =>

52100 [1310] =>

ELLEN on that small a blade of 52100, I think I would normalize it three(3) times. Just take it up to 1425 NO MORE than that if you can help it. I have my best luck guessing at the heat in the late evening or night. 1425 is just a red. Have a magnet hung over your forge. Take it up to non-mag three times, the first two just let the small blade cool down past black a little and the third time, set it to the side and let cool completely.

[1311] => When you start to harden have your oil at 140 degrees. A quick oil-TEXACO or mineral oil. That small of a blade with a hundred points of carbon will tear-apart at the least nod of your head. Dunk it for a quick count of four , jerk it out for a slower count of three and stick back till the heat is gone. Draw it back at 375 for a 1/2 hr.twice. Take it to the vet and hang it in his Nitro for a night.

[1312] => On hardening I would quench three times, just to make sure I had the grain as tight as I could get it. The reason for all the grain tightening is to make sure it will hold and edge and when it does dull, the farrier can sharpen it easily. It should have a 57 59 hardness

[1313] => A knife you cannot sharpen is not worth a dime. Pull the grain down and they will cut a long time and sharpen easily.

[1314] => forge thick, grind thin

[1315] => chuck [1316] =>

[1317] => John Larson - Sun 25 Nov 2007 18:54:23 #0 [1318] =>

[1319] =>

Good'un Mills. :-)

[1320] => This morning I planned my attack in the warmth of my shop office, but then donned my Carhart overalls and headed into the shop. Got the aerofoil off again and then used the mag drill and a 5/8" annular cutter to slot the pivot mounting holes. I was pleased when I got the top end of the machine back together again. Then I started to make the slider plate for the roller valve--BUT WAIT, SOMETHING IS WRONG. I had to re-do the whole driver side and it took much of the day. Errors always take longer to fix than making them. Turns out that the 1x1 stock that I use on each side of the v-guides is 7/8 x 1 in the latest batch. :-( I shoulda caught the snafu before I left Access Metals, and then yesterday when the holes locations didn't seem right, but didn't until this morning. So the holes in the cladding plate had to be filled and smoothed before starting over. I shifted the V-guide a half inch and redrilled it, too. When I locked up the shop I hopefully had the hammer to where is was supposed to be last night.

[1321] => Tomorrow I start on four hitches, unless it is raining. [1322] =>

[1323] => David S. - Sun 25 Nov 2007 20:31:23 #0 [1324] =>

Propane, etc. [1325] =>

Propane prices: my next door neighbour came over today to watch my wifey and I pour concrete for a new patio, and he commented that he had just had his propane tank at his house filled for $4.00/ gal. plus his monthly rental fee on the tank!!!! Back last summer when I had my 100# tank filled it was $75 at the dealer's yard. I guess coastal SC is not the best place to be for propane prices.

[1326] => Lots of great work in the galery: Rich, that must be a gold plated Detroit Diesel or Volvo under that magnificent treasure chest lid; Jeff R. nice looking trowels; everybody else, great photos of very nice work.

[1327] => Dave, on the Edge of America where it went from a daytime high of 80F to 50F in one day and now expected to be in the 70's by the next week-end: is it global warming or global cooling?????? [1328] =>

[1329] => Jim Fecteau - Sun 25 Nov 2007 20:42:18 #0 [1330] =>

Access Metals [1331] =>

John L

[1332] => Checking to make sure they are doing their job. HMMMM
[1333] => Not so sure I'd like that to much. I'd more then likely be raising a stink
[1334] => if it were me spending a day getting back to square one............. Your a good
[1335] => man If that hole deal didn't get under your skin.
[1336] => JIM [1337] =>

[1338] => plain ol Bill - Sun 25 Nov 2007 20:49:54 #0 [1339] =>

Damascus layer counts [1340] =>

John I use a mix of all high carbon in my damascus. I use 1080 & 15N20 because they are so close and weld together very nicely. I also use 1/8" thick material and 31 layers alternating the materials. Sometimes I will double up one material or the other if I want thicker dark or bright lines when etched. I made up a 186 layer (first was 31 then cut into 3 and rewelded, then cut into 2 and rewelded) billet and then squeezed it in half down the center line using top and bottom cutting dies on the press - this squeezed all the layers down to a point on the cut side). Cut those two pieces in half then tacked all 4 back together with all the points to the inside. Using a set of squaring dies in the press I forge welded all these together until I was sure it was welded good. Then put it under the hammer and drew it out while rotating it 90 degrees with each pass to try and hold the pattern. Thats as far as I got today and will cut the end tomorrow and etch. Will post up a pic of it along with shots of the type dies I use that Ralph requested earlier. [1341] =>

[1342] => HW - Sun 25 Nov 2007 21:46:22 #0 [1343] =>

Shop heat [1344] =>

OK - I know you Northern folks are going to laugh at me but we've had 40 degrees, rain and 30 mph winds for the last four days. My shop is closed in but has plenty of drafts and is completely un-insulated so it was no fun for an old South Texas boy having to finish a job that's already overdue.

[1345] => Anyway, I went to HD on Friday after Turkey Day and bought one of those forced draft heaters, what we usually call a torpedo. It runs on diesel or kerosene and is rated to put out 70,000 BTU. Well, let me tell you that was the best $200 I've spent in a while because the shop now gets toasty in about 15 minutes and I can work in shirt sleeves with no discomfort. I don't know how many seasons it will last but I hope it's some time considering our mild winters...and mild or not, there are always more than a few days that I would not want to be out there. The other side benefit is that the fluorescents light up fine and don't buzz when the temp is around 60.

[1346] => Hope that didn't sound too much like a blatant advertisement but I had to tell somebody that might appreciate the info and all I can say is...don't put up with being miserable - it's not worth it. [1347] =>

[1348] => Brian C. - Sun 25 Nov 2007 21:50:22 #0 [1349] =>

Lexington [1350] =>

Jeff R.- wish I could be there at the Hunt-Morgan house to kibitz next week, but alas I have to work until 1500 then will probably take #2 son into the deer woods after work. I could send Dad in my place. :) [1351] =>

[1352] => Sandpile - Sun 25 Nov 2007 22:10:38 #0 [1353] =>

warm shop [1354] =>

My knife shop is small(12X24), radient heat on top of five gallon propane can will last all winter. I have 4" styrofome(sp) on all four sides and the top, with the knife shop being inside the barn. Don't take much to heat or cool it.Grin.

[1355] => The smithy is in barn 40X50X14' walls all is insulated but no heat in the barn. Cold weather will freeze everything including me.Grin

[1356] => I have a space heater like your new one but mine is 20 years old and been used by half the people in the county. Meaning it don't work like it used to. That is not a very good item to loan out.

[1357] => chuck [1358] =>

[1359] => JBodin - Sun 25 Nov 2007 22:23:54 #0 [1360] =>

"Free" books [1361] =>

I have some metallurgy related books both text and reference for “free” (you pay shipping). I went to Milwaukee School of Engineering in the early 60’s and some of the text books are from there, others I have acquired during my industrial career. The books are as follows. Email me if your interested.

[1362] => Ferrous Physical Metallurgy
[1363] => Grain Control in Industrial Metallurgy
[1364] => Nonferrous Physical Metallurgy
[1365] => Metallurgy of Welding
[1366] => Introduction to Powder Metallurgy
[1367] => Powder Metallurgy Science
[1368] => Metals Handbook ASM vol 2 Heat Treating, Cleaning and Finishing 8th Edition
[1369] => Metals Handbook ASM vol 1 Properties and Selection of Metals 8th Edition
[1370] => Metals Handbook ASM copyrighted 1948
[1371] => US Steel I-T diagrams – Isothermal Transformation of austenite in a wide variety of steels.
[1372] => Stainless Steel Fabrication – Published by Allegheny Ludlum Steel Corp 1959
[1373] => Fabrication of USS Stainless Steel
[1374] => Modern Steels and their properties (Bethlehem Steel) – has Heat color and Temper colors for various temperatures.
[1375] => Ryerson Stock list

[1376] => Jim Bodin
[1377] => [1378] =>

[1379] => Ralph Sproul - Mon 26 Nov 2007 07:42:44 #0 [1380] =>

Torpedos [1381] =>

HW - Hindsight of course - but I'd off purchased a propane torpedo so I could use my bulk storage for shop heat, forges, & torch cutting and heating (but not gas welding).

[1382] => I've made my whips have quick couplers on them to attach all the different accessories to the propane listed above.

[1383] => I do own a kerosene torpedo and use it in the field to start cold machines, thaw pipes in crawl spaces and cellars (where we get much lower than 40 degree temps - to the tune of 32 below)

[1384] => The Kerosene is more BTU's per gallon as propane is lower than Kero and I dont' like the stink in a shop of the oil smell as we'd have to run it a hell of lot more than you would at 40 degrees. I honestly couldn't say more bang for the buck (I had to refer to gallons) as Kero now is in the $4 per gallon range and Propane is at $2.20 - so cost wise right now they are about equal BTU's for the dollar. Both torpedos of course put out carbon monoxide if you decide to let it rip for a while - make sure to vent so you don't get a headache or worse carbon monoxide poisoning. Signs of that are confusion, light headed, and not being able to catch your breath. It takes four times longer to release the carbon dioxide from your sytem than it takes ot put it that tells you how long to stay outside if you do encounter this problem.

[1385] => Being warm is nice - paying the fuel costs is harsh.

[1386] => Ralph [1387] =>

[1388] => Joe Rollings - Mon 26 Nov 2007 09:35:00 #0 [1389] =>

Heat [1390] =>

Some very nice work has been done in improving the MEN waste oil burner. A guy named Roy something built one of the burners for his shop and used it for a season, then made some modifications for it that got past the cleaning and low level burning problems so it will now run at a full range of temps and can be cleaned in a few moments. It seems like the ideal solution to shop heating. The problems I still see are oil handling and tank location. The stuff can be a mess if it gets out of control and it still has to be collected and put into the tank and that has lots more potential for messes. I think I may modify my shop wood stove for waste oil use and see if I can get past the problems....Joe [1391] =>

[1392] => John Fe - Mon 26 Nov 2007 09:59:08 #0 [1393] =>

heat [1394] =>

I use a kero sallamander heater hooked to a thermostat set at 40º, just to keep shit from freezing, and when I actuly use the shop (which ain't much lately) the forge brings it up to temp quickly.
[1395] => After Ralph brought up usein a propane sallamander instead , I got ta thinkin of that but I couldn't use that with my thermostat system. I also have a propane one but you need to push an inighter and hold another button till a probe gets hot, so it won't work.
[1396] => I only go thru about 20 gals of keroseen a winter so it ain't so bad. And when I think of it I put the anti stinkum in the petro. [1397] =>

[1398] => Sandpile - Mon 26 Nov 2007 11:09:04 #0 [1399] =>

TERRIOSTS [1400] =>

ELLEN-- Better get your long smoke pole cleaned up and ready. Something is goin on at Ft. Huachuca(whachuca). Druggies have smuggled terriosts into attack the Ft.

[1401] => chuck [1402] =>

[1403] => HW - Mon 26 Nov 2007 11:37:27 #0 [1404] =>

[1405] =>


[1406] => Home Depot didn't carry a propane torpedo - just the diesel/kerosene version. WW Grainger had them in stock in Dallas but I didn't want to wait until Monday. I used to have one of those radiant heaters that bolted to the top of a 5 gal propane bottle but you had to be standing right next to it to get warm so I wanted something with forced air.

[1407] => You are perfectly correct about CO "pizening" but this old shop leaks everywhere and has a 4 inch gap at the roof where the purlins attach (remember, this is South Texas so I can work in short sleeves about 340 days out of the year). I did put the heater near the front door to pull fresh air.

[1408] => Electric heat is clean and safe but the big electric salamanders pull a LOT of juice (60 amps on 240v 1-phase) so I thought that was a bit too much overkill for my needs. [1409] =>

[1410] => Joe Rollings - Mon 26 Nov 2007 12:23:02 #0 [1411] =>

Terrorists...Sandpile [1412] =>

Fort "hoochie koochie" is less than 100 miles from us, UPWIND! On the other side of us just a few miles down the road is the town of plyas, where the homeland security folks teach companies and other government agencies how to resist terrorist attacks. Meanwhile the steady stream of wetbacks and other backs parade across the desert in between like it is Sunday afternoon in the park. Nothing moving on the mountain foot trail though, traffic jam!...Joe [1413] =>

[1414] => Wayne c - Mon 26 Nov 2007 12:25:08 #0 [1415] =>

Plain damn stupid ? [1416] =>

I thought I have seen most stupid stunts, but today was pure genius!!!
[1417] => Picture the scene - a gang of blokes laying tarmac, a flatbed lorry with a gang of 9 x 70lb propane cylinders behind the cab, their tools and a pile of cold tarmac in the middle of the bed and two vats of molten tar sat over gas burners at the rear of the truck.
[1418] => Besides all of this kit they have a torch/lance to keep the tar soft while it is being poured/layed.Looks like a giant weed burner - a pipe about 8-9 foot long, the gas pipes coming in one end and a burner nozzle about 18 inches long on the other end - the entire nozzle is glowing bright orange in daylight.
[1419] => Ok, the guys have been working hard all day and the cylinders are starting to run a bit low and as all of you who use gas forges know the cylinders start to freeze up, the pressure drops and you get a frost around the outside of the cylinders.
[1420] => Well this gang of cylinders had frost about a third of the way up the sides - so what would you guys do?

[1421] => Would you take the torch/lance and start playing it over the cylinders to defrost and warm them up? the heroes of this story did!!!!!!
[1422] => Tommorow I am going to have to sit down with my boss and write an incedent report on these clowns.
[1423] => The only possible upside? to this story is that if anything had gone pearshaped at least they were working in an hospital carpark. [1424] =>

[1425] => Gavainh - Mon 26 Nov 2007 14:11:14 #0 [1426] =>

Deer Hunting [1427] =>

Bruce, alas no deer hunting this year on opening day. I spent too much vacation job hunting and elk hunting in Colorado. This will be the first time I've missed opening day in about 20 years. On the other hand, considering today's weather rainy and in the 40's I'm not certain I'm mising much :)

[1428] => I've got to agree that crossing the mountains will create a different mind outlook, unfortunately I just didn't find what I wanted in the Pittsburgh area. I've got 10 to 12 years to go before I'll want/need to retire, as I'm 55 now. Hope to head back to western PA then, though I don't have the offer in hadn yet, just word from the recruiter that it's coming.

[1429] => Bears - We had about a 550 lber taken within 2 to 3 miles of the plant in Hollsopple, PA. [1430] =>

[1431] => HW - Mon 26 Nov 2007 14:28:12 #0 [1432] =>

[1433] =>


[1434] => A propane explosion is truly impressive. I have been told that in the first Gulf War the military would sometimes set a 500 gallon tank in the middle of a mine field and shoot at it with .50 cal incendiary. The resulting concussion blast would usually set off most of the mines in the area.

[1435] => A couple of years ago, a very nice house just outside San Antonio was destroyed by a propane leak. The home owners had left for the Christmas holidays (fortunately) and the tank leaked into the house until it found a pilot. There was nothing left of the house except the slab - I have never seen such destruction. [1436] =>

[1437] => Marc - Mon 26 Nov 2007 16:11:20 #0 [1438] =>

Gas explosion [1439] =>

When I was a kid a house a couple blocks over blew up due to a natural gas leak. They didn't have NG to their house, but there was a leak in the street and the gas found its way along a water or sewer pipe into the family's basement. They had an electric clothes dryer and some spark in there set it off one evening.

[1440] => The house was lifted off its foundation and cracked a beam when landing. One side wall completely blew off and was lying in their yard. The wall on the other side disconnected, but was held on by the electrical service wire.

[1441] => The tragedy was that a three-yr-old girl died and her father was burned all over. I don't remember how badly, but he was months in the hospital. He survived, though. They were both in the basement playing at the time. The family upstairs were unharmed.

[1442] => [1443] =>

[1444] => Ellen - Mon 26 Nov 2007 18:08:46 #0 [1445] =>

Sandpile [1446] =>

Thanks for the heat treat info, much appreciated.

[1447] => Also, thanks for the heads up on Ft. Huachuca; but they're not terrorists you know, only maids and fruit pickers looking for work. :)

[1448] => I saw a mobile home destroyed by a propane explosion a few years back. Total devestation and it was only a five gallon tank. When I run a gas line I like to put a gauge on it, add some pressure, and let it sit for a bit. Really the only way to check accurately for leaks. Gauges are less than $20 at the local hardware store. [1449] =>

[1450] => plain ol Bill - Mon 26 Nov 2007 18:37:11 #0 [1451] =>

Pics [1452] =>

Ralph, John and anyone who wants to look I threw some pics up of the press, dies, forge and a chunk of radial damascus if ya want to look. [1453] =>

[1454] => Jeff reinhardt - Mon 26 Nov 2007 19:18:19 #0 [1455] =>

[1456] =>

Gas wxplosions, a number of years ago, a fellow bought a fixerupper house in the west end of Louisville. He started fixing, but the materials and new fixtures were being stollen faster than he could replace them. He set up a trip gun hooked to the front door, a 12 gauge with a rocksalt load. Neighbors smelled gas and callled the fire dept. The fire dept came out smelled gas and called the gas company. Once on the scene, The fire dept and gas company guys kicked in the front door, setting off the gun, and totally blowing away the house. I think I remember that the guys lived but with serious injuries. The house owner rightly went to jail.

[1457] => Ellen, For the gage to drop with a decent pressure say of 80 to 100 psi would take a large leak unless the test is run a day or so. With the gas being compressable the prussure drop is fairly small for a small leak.
[1458] => If you used water however the pressure drop for a tiny leak shows rather quickly, depending on the starting pressure and volume. For a large valve, say a 4" gate valve tested at a starting pressure of 2200 psi, and a internal volume of about a quart, the pressure would drop to about 1500 psi in one minute if the leak was 1 drop in one minute. I used to design machines to do this type of testing at the valve shop:) [1459] =>

[1460] => Joe Rollings - Mon 26 Nov 2007 19:22:49 #0 [1461] =>

propane explosion....other neat stuff [1462] =>

When I was a small lad my grandad built a cement block house in Liget Il. and built it Hell for stout. When My grandparents died, the house sold and a certain idiot temporary uncle by marriage of mine made a trip out there from Terre Haute Ind. to steal the water heater before the new folks moved in. They made the first trip with furniture and went back to town for another load, having turned on the gas and lit the furnace pilot light. The neighbor across the hollow was watching when the roof went up a few feet and fell back down inside the walls, which were still standing for the most part. That was shortly before the guy became an ex-uncle by divorce.

[1463] => I imagine everybody else on the planet already know this but I did not. I have been having trouble reading some of this stuff because I had to install Mozilla to get my site building software to work and now the print on most sites is smaller than before and I have to adjust print size on each site I visit. I mentioned this to one of my daughters and she told me "just hold down the ctrl key on the keyboard and spin the mouse dial" WOW! I can see!....Joe [1464] =>

[1465] => John Larson - Mon 26 Nov 2007 20:18:48 #0 [1466] =>

[1467] =>

Joe, thanks for the tip on print size control. Plain ol bill, thanks for the pictures. The billet seems to me to be about 4"x4". Right? How do you use the radial pattern? That is, how do you use the billet? Sliced across, lengthways, on a diagonal? The radial pattern is a new one for me, but I am soooo much the novice.

[1468] => I welded all day. In the fog and mist and light rain. But I wanna get this job done asap for my own sanity with this group of nincumpoops. The highlight of the day was discovering how to ACCURATELY transfer the the frame mounting plates' locations to a new length of I-beam. Every trailer is different so even two "alike" trailers don't guarantee hitches will swap. Anyways, my idea was to just torch off the top flange of the injured I-beam from the first flange to the second one and then use this length to position and orient those flanges onto the new I-beam. Once positioned and tacked, I zip off the piece of metal between the flanges and presto magnifico perfecto no more ill fits/no fits. I've probably done 75 hitches over the past two/three years and this trick woulda saved me quite a bit of time. The lowlight of the day was dealing with the driver of their Mack tractor. He was supposed to deliver it to my shop on last Wednesday afternoon so that over the long weekend I could repair the front bumper brackets that he broke. He's been complaining to his boss about this for no less than three months. I asked him why he did not deliver the truck, he said he forgot. FORGOT! He's the source of the work request. So I did another 15 minute tack weld job and he was happy. [1469] =>

[1470] => Sandpile - Mon 26 Nov 2007 20:57:35 #0 [1471] =>

blow-ups [1472] =>

Speaking of DUMMIES. We had a nest of dopers/smokers/sniffers/all the above using and selling to young kids, living in a cheap rent house. One of them used to work for me till I came in behind him, to hear him treatening my oldest boy. I literally kicked his ass plumb off the property, one king-sized kick at a time.

[1473] => The law-enforcement people had been trying to get them, for quite a while. One of them had a dad with deep pockets and he kept getting them out of the reach of the law. The law turned them lose off of 72 hr. harassment time holding. The dopers went waltzing out the door, laughing and paraded down the street. Walked about three or four blocks to the house they were all camped out in. I don't know whether their smellers was ruined from all the coke or what. They all broke out a joint and were about to have themselves a celebration and struck a match.

[1474] => The house shook like weeds in the wind, the roof came up about two feet all the windows blew out, the door blew across the street.

[1475] => The reason I know all of this is because the city boys told me they had followed them home, except the last block and half. The neighbors said The cop car was a little more to the East than West of center on the road, like they were trying to get the best look they could.

[1476] => Four were in the house one survived. He was absolutely scared to death when he came back from the burn center. His folks shipped him somewhere, and paid for him to get some kind of education, other than thinking how dumb hayseed polic officers are. It was never proven who turned the nut on the pipe causing the house to blow, but I don't anybody that tried to.

[1477] => chuck [1478] =>

[1479] => Marc - Mon 26 Nov 2007 21:13:16 #0 [1480] =>

Mozilla text size [1481] =>

Joe, I use Firefox, which is a Mozilla browser. I can change the default text through Edit-Preferences-Content, and changing the Default font size.

[1482] => --Marc
[1483] => [1484] =>

[1485] => plain ol Bill - Mon 26 Nov 2007 21:13:34 #0 [1486] =>

Radial billit [1487] =>

John the billet is 1x1 at this point. The pattern is on the end of the billet and would not show if you drew if out and made a blade out of it currently. You have to get the pattern on the side rather than the end and I do it by slicing it into pieces 1" long at a 30 degree angle. Then I turn all those pieces so the pattern is on the side and MIG weld the outside of them together all the way around. Grind off 90% of the weld on the pattern sides then stick it in the forge again at 23-2400 degrees and let it soak till there are no shadows then another 10 minutes to ASSURE heat. Massage under the press then draw out (flatten) it for knife stock. This last weld is a dry weld w/ no flux required. [1488] =>

[1489] => Sandpile - Mon 26 Nov 2007 21:15:36 #0 [1490] =>

blow-ups [1491] =>

It should have read---The last sentence---But I don't know anybody that tried to.grin
[1492] => First mistake I ever made.BOG.

[1493] => chuck [1494] =>

[1495] => Sandpile - Mon 26 Nov 2007 21:28:07 #0 [1496] =>

patteren steel [1497] =>

BILL--VELLY interesting. Thanks for your time and effort. I can imagine you sawing across from one corner to the other --turning them a quarter turn then welding them length way back together. Making a billet about 4" long. Right ??grin

[1498] => chuck [1499] =>

[1500] => Ralph Sproul - Mon 26 Nov 2007 21:38:55 #0 [1501] =>

press dies [1502] =>

Thanks P.O.Bill for posting the pictures of the quick change dies along with other press die configurations. These looked like they might work slick - then your damascus billet kind of took any vaque thoughts on that topic away.

[1503] => I used a slide in plate for my dies with sort of "gibs" to either side. This works great with gravity - but the tops are bolt on (bummer). I like your slip on dies. Are you cutting angle legs off to make the slide on runners? or are these some sort of extrusion you came up with somewhere.......slicing angle legs off doesn't sound like the greatest way to make 20 slide on dies - but I guess it beats bolt on time ehh?

[1504] => Ralph [1505] =>

[1506] => John Odom - Mon 26 Nov 2007 21:40:42 #0 [1507] =>

Booms [1508] =>

I spent many years working full-time as a fire and explosion investigator. I've seen a lot of them. They can be very spectacular. Many of the building explosions are caused by stupidity. some by negligence, only a few are true accidents. [1509] =>

[1510] => Jim M - Mon 26 Nov 2007 22:06:40 #0 [1511] =>

so nice to be spam free [1512] =>

Haven't had an opportunity to catch up with the posts here yet, but sure is nice not to have to wade through the spam.

[1513] => Caught up with Forgemagic last night, and sure hope Sparky is okay.

[1514] => [1515] =>

[1516] => Sandpile - Mon 26 Nov 2007 22:21:23 #0 [1517] =>

ball-players [1518] =>

JIM M.-- where are you located?? Sprindale, Fayetteville or Harrison.?

[1519] => There was a football player fron BENTENVILLE made the Faces in the crowd collum in the Sports Illustrated this week. Running back with BIG numbers.

[1520] => chuck [1521] =>

[1522] => Jim M - Mon 26 Nov 2007 22:36:03 #0 [1523] =>

Geographic Sandpile [1524] =>

I'm in Fayetteville, Chuck. We've had a lot of very good high school players in the state this year and I can't keep track of 'em. Bentonville is just up the road, though, so I need to check out that article. Maybe my dentist will have it when I visit him tomorrow. <grin>

[1525] => [1526] =>

[1527] => plain ol Bill - Mon 26 Nov 2007 23:09:35 #0 [1528] =>

radial billet [1529] =>

Chuck there wasn't any saw work on the billet. The original billet was actually squeezed in half using the cutting dies. What that did was compress the pattern on each half into a "V" pattern. Take each half, cut into two equal pieces and then forge weld the 4 pieces back into one. Note all the "legs" on the pattern taper to the middle - squeezed that way. This billet did not come out as straight as some I have done and is the first one that I used the hammer to draw out so that may have changed what it normaly looks like. [1530] =>

[1531] => plain ol Bill - Mon 26 Nov 2007 23:12:36 #0 [1532] =>

press dies [1533] =>

Ralph you are right the legs on the dies are made from 1 1/4x1 1/4 angle w/ one leg cut off just past the axis. Quite a bit of work but then really fast to change over dies and that is really needed at times. [1534] =>

[1535] => Rich Waugh - Tue 27 Nov 2007 00:08:51 #0 [1536] =>

Bill and Ralph - Forging press question [1537] =>

I've heard it said that forging with a hydraulic press really sucks the heat out of the work way faster than with a powerhammer. I can understand tis, since the contact time is longer and the pressure creating the transfer is higher. So here's my question, brought up by seeing Bill's quick-change dies.

[1538] => Could you have more than one pair of dies for a common operation, and make them out of something like H-13 so ou could keep them hot in an oven, then swap them out if they cool down to where they start sucking too much heat out of the work? Though it seems to me they would actually be heating up as they pull heat from the work. If they stayed at say, 900F, they'd sure pull a lot less heat than they would starting at 72F, right?

[1539] => I don't know if this makes any sense or not, since I've never used a forging press, but I'm sure you guys can fill me in. [1540] =>

[1541] => Ralph Sproul - Tue 27 Nov 2007 07:05:57 #0 [1542] =>

pressing issues [1543] =>

P.O.Bill - Thanks for the angle rip tip. If this is the case, I wonder if 2 or 2 1/2" bar channel could be ripped once and use each half as a side. I'll play with this a bit - cuz you can obviously tell that your top quick change die system is better than mine (and I'm obviously considering changing over my top bolt ons). I'm forever running into my "gibbed ways" on my bottom dies as things bend down, and the top dies are bolt on so Gibbed ways on the top would be rediculous as your forever running into the ram face with the material as you bend V's and curves in stock and adding height tools to overcome this problem. A bulky slider system would only compound this problem - that's why I've stuck to just flat die on top and rarely bolt on the other four dies I've made for the top (which are an aggressive fuller, a wide radius fuller, a cut off, and a huge butcher).

[1544] => With slide on's like Bill's system I could see the addition of a narrow flat to keep bends tighter (and make that die tall), a V block, and some half round bending shoes for use in large swages in the bottom. Now I wrestle this stuff till the press puts tension on things - or get someone to help me - but I work 99% of the time all by myself so extra hands are rare.

[1545] => I see you made the "tack weld system" for dies you give folks hell about breaking (love it - and totally understand how that can go when folks waltz up and know everything about everything and bust up your tooling!) I understnd bent dies if they were affixed permanently and used outboard on that leverage of the overhang with the power of a press.

[1546] => Thanks for posting those - they have me sketching improvements to mine already.

[1547] => Rich - your thought process is dead on. Scott forge preheats their dies so the alloy doesn't break - but it also sucks less heat from the dies
[1548] => (Hint - the "Glich" here is they change them with a forklift). This on one hand increases your ability to get more forging out of a part by not sucking as much heat out - but bare in mind press dies are heavy heat sinks and you'd now be changing out hot heavy dies and this slows the "quick change" idea down a notch when things are 600-900 degrees. In theory your right - in practice it'd be another series of things to do while using the press.

[1549] => The beauty of using a press is the sheer power of it. Walk up, turn it on, straighten something - go back to work. Adding a preheat process would tend to slow things down - but I question just how much you'd gain with pre-heat on thin parts as they go dead cold in half a second on the press - have never done experiments but have made note when I burn myself on the dies late in the day of pressing - the small parts still go cold quickly. On a press, making parts can be done cold - making them hot increases the ability of the tool - and Bill's obvious study of laminating material takes it to another level all together. In showing how to "pinch off cut", "square up", press "draw" or "straighten all on three dies - it makes you see why this tool is so incredible. I don't have squaring dies nor pinch off cutters........but I can see them in my future now as they could work in art forming of shapes as well as knife work. I'm not an edge head - but can see if someone wanted to play with this stuff at my shop - I'd learn a lot if I had all the dies already sitting there in place to work with.

[1550] => Another question for P.O.Bill, If you have other dies on the side shelf there could you send pics of those? I'd like to see what you've come up with for shaping with the press. Even if they are all knife related I'm sure we'll see the use.

[1551] => I can post some of my press dies if you'd like to see them.

[1552] => Ralph [1553] =>

[1554] => Ralph Sproul - Tue 27 Nov 2007 07:26:35 #0 [1555] =>

Driving a Vertical Forge Chevrolet [1556] =>

Plain Ole Bill, I can see from your first picture that driving a "Vertical Forge Chevrolet" would be far cooler than an S-10 or even a Silverado....but that's not all your depicting in that first picture you posted.

[1557] => On your Vertical Forge - the first thing that caught my eye (besides the yellow heat at the glow hole)......was the digital read out showing the forge running at 2,316 degrees. Now this of course brings on a whole series of questions for a guy like me - that picture was just a tease...... :-)

[1558] => Overall, I see the blown burner feeding into the forge, your sliding stock rack system, the beautiful yellow heat venturi burners don't get, and that awesome pyrometer, along with the mention of flux not bothering this unit as you change out the clay on the bottom every so often.

[1559] => So of course the questions are going to be:
[1560] => - Do you have a parts list of the thermocouple and pyrometer parts for the forge with supplier contact list?
[1561] => -Do you have a set of plans you used for this forge and burner system available?
[1562] => -and how does one change the clay? - it doesn't look like a removable lid - is there a slide out drawer in the back that pulls out?

[1563] => -and........any pictures you'd care to send of the forge answering those questions would be greatly appreciated.

[1564] => Ralph [1565] =>

[1566] => John Odom - Tue 27 Nov 2007 10:02:04 #0 [1567] =>

Vertical forge [1568] =>

Bill, more pictures and information would be appreciated! [1569] =>

[1570] => Gavainh - Tue 27 Nov 2007 10:02:50 #0 [1571] =>

Old Tennessee Iron Forge Hammer [1572] =>

Hello, thought that the following news item from ASM might be of interest – it can be accessed by going to Look in the lower right hand corner for the ASM News heading, and go down to Nov. 21, 2007 to the headline “Drought Reveals Hammer from Old Tennessee Iron Forge”

[1573] => You can also reach ASM by using your favorite search engine and searching for ASM International. You don’t have to be an ASM member to access the news and a lot of other issues available on the site.

[1574] => ASM news does have a limited time availability, so if you want to see the article I’d pull it up today.
[1575] => [1576] =>

[1577] => HW - Tue 27 Nov 2007 11:13:51 #0 [1578] =>

[1579] =>

It might be a bit much for the home shop but in a commercial setting, hot oil is often used to heat dies - usually to around 600-800 degrees. We used oil in the injection molding process and it worked well, although often messy if you had any leaks (and could also be hazardous if a major leak happened). [1580] =>

[1581] => SGensh - Tue 27 Nov 2007 11:40:26 #0 [1582] =>

Die Flanges [1583] =>

PO Bill and Ralph, Hey guys- You've both got very short powerful press brakes there. Why waste your time ripping off an angle leg when you could cold form flat bar into the short leg angle you need in seconds using the same press you are making the quick change tooling for? I sure do like the idea of the slide on dies though Bill- I'll be coppying that when I finally build my own. Thanks for sharing. Steve G [1584] =>

[1585] => Ellen - Tue 27 Nov 2007 12:28:20 #0 [1586] =>

Jeff [1587] =>

[1588] => The local city code says to pressurize the gas line with a minimum of 10PSI for at least 15 minutes and watch for pressure drop. I like to leave it more like 8 hours. The regulator drops the line pressure to something like 1/2# per psi....I use compressed air to pressurize the line. [1589] =>

[1590] => Marc - Tue 27 Nov 2007 12:39:08 #0 [1591] =>

Pressure checks [1592] =>

I believe that my gas company does a similar thing when doing a pressure check. They used air to pressurize my line in the morning and came back later to do the check. If I remember correctly they said a minimum of 2 hours, but in practice it was longer than that, maybe 4.
[1593] => [1594] =>

[1595] => dloc - Tue 27 Nov 2007 15:45:23 #0 [1596] =>

Bridge Material? [1597] =>

What is the chance that an overhead truss bridge constructed in 1910 over the Kickapoo River at Soldiers Grove, WI is made of wrought iron? [1598] =>

[1599] => Ralph Sproul - Tue 27 Nov 2007 19:18:58 #0 [1600] =>

short leg forming [1601] =>

Steve G - How would you pose bending a 1/4" plate with a 1/2" leg on it and 1 1/4 on the other ? Usually you use a 6x for sheet or 8x the materials thickness for plate with the top width of a V block in forming. How would you start a 1/2" leg? I realize you'd start with a 1 1/2" piece due to material thickness - but your going to have to use a minimum or a 3/4" V block to get the starting support to initiate the bend in 1/4" plate??.......or am I missing something really obvious here...........if so, plesae fill me in.

[1602] => Ralph [1603] =>

[1604] => plain ol Bill - Tue 27 Nov 2007 19:32:47 #0 [1605] =>

More press die stuffffff [1606] =>

Rich when I first started I had the same thoughts about pre-heating the dies but gave up on it after the first pressing session. When you are working those dies get HOT fast with 2300 degree materials. They get hot enuf I don't worry too much about any pre heat. I tried some H13 and other things at first but it got expensive and now I just make all my dies from A36 and believe it or not they hold up just as well. And a lot cheaper to use and maintain too!
[1607] => Ralph thats a good thought on the small channel, I'll have to get a piece and do some measuring. I'll try to get some more pics of dies and put some labeling on them on how I use them for you.
[1608] => Yeah Steve - what Ralph said! Me being a dumb ol back country boy from Texas draw me a sketch if you would on how I can do this cause it sounds a lot easier than burning a lot of angle to make the legs. [1609] =>

[1610] => Sandpile - Tue 27 Nov 2007 19:37:40 #0 [1611] =>

line test [1612] =>

On testing lines--We used to hook up irrigation wells to propane(Butane-back then). We would take it as high as the compressor would go, valve it off and leave it for 24 hrs. After we had done a few, we got our process down. After that I can remember having to tear down and redo a line, a time or two.

[1613] => Man would it take a bucket of money to buy those brass lines, valves, and fittings. We used black pipe where we could.

[1614] => chuck [1615] =>

[1616] => plain ol Bill - Tue 27 Nov 2007 19:41:19 #0 [1617] =>

vertical forge [1618] =>

Ralph I will put together a list of what "I" would use today for a forge pyrometer for you. I'll also see if I can't work up a little more info on my forge and burner system. Ya just gotta love blown forges - no tinkering w/ them, just give it more gas or more air and watch it get HOT-HOT-HOT. I can control mine to the point I can hold temperature within 10 degrees after I give it time to warm up good. I used to heat treat all my blades in the vertical forge before I made a hot salts forge for heat treating. Folks that don't have pyrometers on their forges don't KNOW what their heat is really. When I started working with titanium is when I found out (the hard way of course) that I had to KNOW what the heat in there really was. [1619] =>

[1620] => plain ol Bill - Tue 27 Nov 2007 20:00:20 #0 [1621] =>

Heat treating forge [1622] =>

Threw a couple of pics in of the salt pot forge I made to use for heat treating blades in. These are the only venturi burners in my shop. [1623] =>

[1624] => Sandpile - Tue 27 Nov 2007 20:06:45 #0 [1625] =>

Equiptment [1626] =>

BILL- You would laugh your bunns off, looking what I use for knifemaking.

[1627] => That salt pot was not cheap. Everything you have shown us is first rate for a homeshop. Makes a guy want to upgrade, but it will never happen at my house. I could not make it pay for its self.

[1628] => chuck [1629] =>

[1630] => SGensh - Tue 27 Nov 2007 20:23:32 #0 [1631] =>

Short Flange Bends [1632] =>

Ralph and PO Bill, Like in the photos I just posted. I figured I'd just do a quick sample bend rather than try and explain. The key is to use a stop to hold the material in position as it starts to bend. I only used a three inch wide piece because it was the first thing in the scrap bin. The four way die was just thrown up on the end of the bed because I have the long air bends in place in the press. It didn't need to be keyed in place to stay put for the bending so your hydrraulic presses can do the same thing.

[1633] => Ralph, Of course you are right about the normal practice but in this case you don't want an internal radius and you are only bending a short piece and can waste some power so bending the rules is in order (sorry about the pun).

[1634] => Bill, That is some nice looking equipment you've been making; and your results show it too.

[1635] => [1636] =>

[1637] => Jeff Reinhardt - Tue 27 Nov 2007 20:41:44 #0 [1638] =>

leak testing [1639] =>

All the gate valves we tested in production were to API spec's. This called for a 100 psi air test, with a leakage specified to be "no visible leakage" during the 15 seconds. This was for 2" and under. The cavity between the seats had to be pressurized before the test started. We tried pressure decay run by a automatic system made for pressure decay testing. Failed at these pressures and leak rates. In retrospect, they maker of that system was asking for us to test at 5 to 15 psi for 5 seconds as they did for tail light assemblies. The heat of compression played heck with the system at the 100 psi, and if you left the system in a continious mode you caould watch the pressure change as the heat of compression from charging the valve was asorbed into the mass of the valve.
[1640] => Many gal line tests use a pressure decay test. Often the pressure is indeed low. Often the gage is a 2.5" cheapie, with a 0-30 psi range. Most of these have an accuracy of 2-3-2% that means 2% of full scale-3%-2% of full scale in each third with the middle third of the range the more accurate. This means an acceptable gage could be off almost a psi in the first and last third of the range. The more volume in the tested line, the smaller the drop for a given leak. With all the above, probably the reason it works is that most gas lines are at 1" of water column pressure.
[1641] => In testing for leaks, my old boss, who is the undisputed industry authority on valves and leakage in the process industry always said " there is no such thing as "zero leakage, there is only leakage smaller than the defined standard or too small for the method used to measure it"
[1642] => We tested to a no visible leakage in 15 seconds under water to a mass spectrometer leak method that could find a leak that would take thousands of years to leak a CC of helium. Everything under pressure leaks, we just may not be able to detect it:)
[1643] => I sealed up the openings on the house plumbing when I built it, pressurized, left it 24 hours, saw what I thought was a tiny drop on a 12" test gage I borrowed, and then started using a leak detection fluid on the joints. Found several that raised a froth. May or may not have smelled gas from those, but since they were DWV and potable water... [1644] =>

[1645] => Mills - Tue 27 Nov 2007 20:56:42 #0 [1646] =>

[1647] =>

Steve G that is pretty slick I was wondering what you had in mind. Now I really want one of them things.
[1648] => plain ol bIll that is some really nice equipment you have there. Impressive. Like sandpile though I don't even want to know what it takes. It'll just be a list of stuff I can't have. :{( [1649] =>

[1650] => John Larson - Tue 27 Nov 2007 20:58:07 #0 [1651] =>

[1652] =>

Plain ol Bill, I'd guess you use an abrasive cutoff disk to slice the high carbon billet because I suspect it would quickly dull a bandsaw blade. I look forward to a picture of the billet prepared for a blade and the blade. I second Ralph Sproul's enthusiasm and requests.

[1653] => IMHO a good feature of a utility hammer is that there is no need to turn it on and off, and no noise associated with it (if the compressor is located outside the shop). The machine stands ready all the time. Walk up to the hammer with the hot billet, hit it once or twice to consumate the weld, and go back to the fire. The slide in dies are kinda necessary with a press because of the small die separation, but with a utility hammer (with a tup that rises when your foot is taken off the treadle) you can use a saddle on the bottopm die with an offset hardy hole to hold spring fullers and other spring tooling.

[1654] => I did more hitch work today, but the weather was really nice and I enjoyed myself. [1655] =>

[1656] => plain ol Bill - Tue 27 Nov 2007 21:36:05 #0 [1657] =>

tooling [1658] =>

Chuck if I'm anything it is a pretty fair scrounger. I look hard for things to use and try real hard to get by cheap as I can and still wind up with what I had in mind to start with.
[1659] => John I use a bandsaw primarily to cut my billets up with. I have an Ellis that uses a 1"x10' blade and a porta band I clamp in a vise. High carbon that has not been hardened doesn't seem to faze the blades. I use the Ellis if I am patient and let a billet cool off and the nasty abrasive chop saw if it is still red (grin, cough, cough). [1660] =>

[1661] => plain ol Bill - Tue 27 Nov 2007 21:38:55 #0 [1662] =>

Bending on the press [1663] =>

Steve now ya got me to thinking! I'm going to have to make some dies (or ebay) and start doing some bending. Thanks a bunch for the pics - now I understand (at least a little). I will stop taking up so much bandwidth for a little while folks. [1664] =>

[1665] => Sandpile - Tue 27 Nov 2007 21:53:32 #0 [1666] =>

stuff [1667] =>

STEVE that is slick.

[1668] => ELLEN those heattreat tidbits that I put out there, will work on lots of different steels that are oilquenched. I oil quench a big lot of the different carbon steels that I use.

[1669] => One other thing if you put anything in the Nitro--you need to give it another run through your kitchen oven.

[1670] => chuck [1671] =>

[1672] => Rich Waugh - Wed 28 Nov 2007 02:37:04 #0 [1673] =>

Hydraulic press [1674] =>

Well, now you guys have gone and done it. I want a hydraulic press! I'm gonna have to go do some late night scrounging on some abandoned heavy equipment, I guess. I doubt I'll ever really get into making more knives, but seeing what Bill and Ralph can do with those things, and then seeing what Steve can do with the press brake (same basic concept) makes me see the value of one of those things. Looking in the catalogues at parts to build one kinda inspired some shortness of breath, though.

[1675] => So many projects, so little time. So many wants, so little money. I can see a scroujnging trip to the States is probably going to have to be on my list of excursions for the new year.

[1676] => Thanks for all the great information, guys! [1677] =>

[1678] => Ralph Sproul - Wed 28 Nov 2007 07:59:09 #0 [1679] =>

Bending the rules [1680] =>

SGensh - Bending the bending rules ehh? :-)

[1681] => Looks like it works and I have all those small dies - but didn't want to break something. Many hot experiments have led to deep cuts on short dies, and cracked material when going under the 8x rule cold - but if your going to 3/4 for a 1/4 plate and getting it- then I can too........I can break rules just as well as the next guy. I can see I'll have to make a very rugged fixed knive holder though to keep things in align - I can see things "flopping fast" if not in alignment. Even if I had a cracked or split corner on a tight cheater bend I could tig it up - the only thing that short leg is going to be required to do is hold up the weight of that top die until contact time.

[1682] => When I was out to Keane's shop I bought all kinds of tool steels, starters, on off swithces for my Nazel, and a pile of about 20 small break dies for my press - I don't know if he's got more of them - but there as a full metal bin full of them when I was there a couple years ago. (Plain ole Bill - you should check with him) Keane's fair on price and a great guy to deal with if he has any more of those for sale. I even bought a 5 foot press brake bottom die and top knife from him and he hauled it out with his family to drop it off one summer and we really had a great time - he spent half his vacation in my shop and on my porch - (the girls like the coast of Maine better'n Ralph's though!! :-)

[1683] => Plain Ole Bill - I think you should just keep using band with till your (or our) hearts are content!!! Don't let the fear of being a gallery hog cut into us learning something cool - we're all in this for comradery and education - your salt pot is well built just like the forge - looking forward to any more pictures you post - or info you write up on the thermocouple and pyrometer. Knowing what your heat is (within 10 degrees) is a wonderful thought for silicon bronze and stainless forging ........don't know if I'll get into titanium - but one never knows what I'll be asked to do next.

[1684] => Rich W - my advise is to go scrounge those pistons off the abandoned machine - work backwards from the bore and volume/stroke you're going to need to fill and run - that'll give you a base line to get the pump and drive motor from. I find Northern Hydraulics great for valves, fittings, couplings, etc. Grainger has the motor to pump adapters (or you can just make one), like a lot of the guys have mentioned the Surplus Catalog and Bailey's are also good outlets for hydraulic parts when hunting/scrouging/buying. Save the post I did a while back as that will help you figure the pump/motor combo - and get one of those fluid power books like Jeff mentioned - great info booklet. I don't have a spare and use mine all the time.

[1685] => Ralph [1686] =>

[1687] => Joe Rollings - Wed 28 Nov 2007 10:17:01 #0 [1688] =>

presses [1689] =>

A few things on presses. I built mine and I love it. A hammer it ain't but it does stuff I can't do on my hammer so I think having both is best. A handy number to have around when doing hydraulics is .785. Take your piston diameter and square it like you were figuring the area of a square, then mulitply it times .785 and you have the area. Saves all that pi stuff.

[1690] => The simplest and cheapest press I ever saw was the one Bob Haverstock had posted down the block. I just tried to find it and it seems to be gone. It was a simple H frame press using a bottle jack. The motor belt went to a jackshaft with a large pulley and the pulley had a crankpin in it that operated a lever up and down and the lever was the jack's handle. The ram was spring loaded to return to the top when the pressure valve was opened. The procedure would have been to start motor with valve open, close valve to activate ram, open valve to raise ram. Had an extention and knob on the valve. Very cute!...Joe [1691] =>

[1692] => HW - Wed 28 Nov 2007 11:21:24 #0 [1693] =>

[1694] =>

I would also offer that you can sometimes find used hydraulic power packs at auctions - we had them in the injection molding business to drive hydraulic cams and slides (they are called "mules" in the trade). Most are completely self contained industrial units, often with quick disconnects, electrical hookups, etc., which are capable of being plumbed to the cylinder of your choice. Many have a two stage circuit so there is a fast travel speed then it kicks over for lockup. We had units with motors up to 20hp 3-phase so they would drive some BIG cylinders. Just a thought if you happen to be near an auction with plastic molding or die casting equipment. [1695] =>

[1696] => Rich Waugh - Wed 28 Nov 2007 11:26:33 #0 [1697] =>

Pressing Issues [1698] =>


[1699] => I have the fluid power handbook in my files, as Tony kindly sent me one a few years ago. It is a very handy little book and will be a necessity ifI actually get around to building a press. I always seem to run into the syndrome of having either the time or the money, but never both at once. These days, as you know, it's the time that really is stopping me. I sure won't complain about being busy, though! The stuff I've been doing is like getting paid to have fun.

[1700] => Today I start on the cannons, and tomorrow/Friday I'll be in Puerto Rico installing the treasure chest hardware. Wish I had time to go scrounging in PR, but there won't be any and I'd have no good way to get stuff home if I did find anything. Tiny little airplane. My Spanish isn't up to negotiating for almost-free stuff, either.

[1701] => Time to go make sawdust, I guess.

[1702] => Rich [1703] =>

[1704] => Rutterbush - Wed 28 Nov 2007 15:18:41 #0 [1705] =>

[1706] =>

[1707] => That bridge is being sold for one U.S. dollar to the scrap recyclers. I can't give you an answer concerning if it is wrought iron or steel. The only thing that I dare hazard a guess at is that the scrap man don't care. He's going to sell it and next week it will be a brand new BMW.
[1708] => When was the Titanic built? Was it wrought iron? Yeah, I could look that up, but I'm busy reading this forum at the moment. Hope you get a better answer.

[1709] => Question for powerhammer builders,
[1710] => I've got a question about hammer dies. When making you're own dies, do you weld the die material to the base plate, then heat treat the die, or do you heat treat the die, then weld it to a base plate? Never having done this, I think it smart to ask those in the know instead of doing and then finding that I should have asked. [1711] =>

[1712] => John Fe - Wed 28 Nov 2007 15:28:49 #0 [1713] =>

hammer dies [1714] =>

S Rudderstick- Clay Spencer , with his tire hammer building class's, has em welded to the base plate then heat treated. This was at least untill he had one in Maine, where Derric hardened the dies first then welded the base on. And since this is what I seen ( I built one in Maine, then reasonly here in NY) I did the dies first too and they seem to be just fine.
[1715] => So to answer your question is " Yep". hehheee [1716] =>

[1717] => John Odom - Wed 28 Nov 2007 15:34:08 #0 [1718] =>

Turkeys and Flag [1719] =>

This morning there were two hen turkeys in the yard. They stayed about an hour. Both about the same size, but one was obviously the "leader." I think it is the hen that visited last fall, and occasionally with first otwo, then one chick last spring. They are surely beautiful birds, especially when the sun glints off the feathers.

[1720] => I have all the lab work done 'till my return from Pearl Harbor. If you haven't read it read the story of the flag at:

[1721] => This flag will be used at the dedication of the USS Oklahoma Memorial on December 7 at Pearl Harbor. My wife and I will be there. [1722] =>

[1723] => John Odom - Wed 28 Nov 2007 15:42:17 #0 [1724] =>

Pi stuff [1725] =>

That 0.785 is just pi/4, so you arn't realy away from pi at all.

[1726] => [1727] =>

[1728] => John Odom - Wed 28 Nov 2007 15:48:19 #0 [1729] =>

Coal [1730] =>

Here at the lab in Chattanooga TN we have 8 drums of powdered coal for FREE to any taker. It is good quality coal. The smiths that use it love it. Of course powdered coal dequires different fire management techniques. The person getting it must furnish their own container(s), and shovel from out drums to their container and load their own truck.

[1731] => I am on my way to Pearl Harbor but if you want some call the lab at:

[1732] => (423) 265-4533 ask for Lewis Cain. Tell him I sent you, and make arrangements to pick it up. Lab hours are 9 to 5. [1733] =>

[1734] => Daryl - Wed 28 Nov 2007 16:38:17 #0 [1735] =>

John Odom [1736] =>

John this is a long shot, but when you're at Pearl Harbor, keep your ears open for mothballed Blacksmithing tools. We are shipping tools over to a craft school in Hawaii, the cost of shipping is through the roof. A source of tools on the islands would be a big help to them.

[1737] => Have a good trip [1738] =>

[1739] => Ellen - Wed 28 Nov 2007 17:25:02 #0 [1740] =>

wrought iron and Titanic [1741] =>

Many of the rivets used in Titanic's construction and two sister ships (1908-1912) were wrought iron. It is thought they failed faster than steel rivets would have due to slag content and cold water and played a role in the sinking.

[1742] => The hull plates were rolled steel. [1743] =>

[1744] => Marc - Wed 28 Nov 2007 17:49:59 #0 [1745] =>

A slice of pi [1746] =>

I thought a similar thing - .785 is a three-digit number, as is 3.14, so what's the diff? But then I thought that by using .785 you don't have to divide the diameter by 2 first. That's one less calculation to get wrong :-)

[1747] => [1748] =>

[1749] => Jeremy K - Wed 28 Nov 2007 17:55:25 #0 [1750] =>

Rich W - high silicon bronze [1751] =>

Rich - Just wondering what you used for a finish on the straps/hinges. From the picture it looks like - slightly buffed and maybe gun blue? w/ clear? I called Atlas and got a catalog in route.
[1752] => Thanks - Jeremy Knippel [1753] =>

[1754] => Lance - Wed 28 Nov 2007 19:03:08 #0 [1755] =>

Gichners ,January 11,12 and 13 2008 [1756] =>

[1757] => Mid-Atlantic Smiths Association, MASA's Gichner 4 Annual Memorial Hammer In. January 11,12,and 13 at Hutchinson Brothers Farm, Cordova MD . Send in your registration before the end of December . Price $35 before dec 30. Featuring Paul Thorne from Anacortes Wa .
[1758] => Email for a registration form.
[1759] =>
[1760] => [1761] =>

[1762] => Jeff Reinhardt - Wed 28 Nov 2007 19:21:05 #0 [1763] =>

[1764] =>

From time to time we scrap a powerpac at work. Always 3 phase, almost always Japanese components. Most work, various sizes, should be cheap, anyone interested in hearing if something nice becomes available?

[1765] => I currently have in my personel collection a 35 gallon or so powerpac. 1hp 3 phase and fixed displacement pump. Tank on casters and includes a small pressure filter, and this one is all American. A small unit, but could be handy, interest?
[1766] => I also come across the odd Japanese Thats metric, cylinder from time to time. Most are too short for a press with long stroke. Interest?
[1767] => [1768] =>

[1769] => plain ol Bill - Wed 28 Nov 2007 19:29:27 #0 [1770] =>

pyrometer info [1771] =>

Ralph (and others interested) here is some info about pyrometers like I am using on my forges. You need a temp readout and I use a programable controller for that on mine. It will show you accurate heat in your forge and if you want to go that way it will even act as a programable controller also. The controller works off 110V. Myself - On the forge I just use one for a digital readout only. The tiny url link is to one on ebay (I get mine from the same guy). Another thing you will need is a thermocouple probe and the Omega link will take you to a page about them and the one I reccomend. the only thing missing now is some type "K" thermocouple wire and I will update you on this after I hear back from a vendor.
[1772] => ($48 or bid price)
[1773] => KQXL-14G-12 thermocouple from ($30)
[1774] => [1775] =>

[1776] => Rutterbush - Wed 28 Nov 2007 20:22:15 #0 [1777] =>

John Fe [1778] =>

I don't play that S Rudderstick stuff any more. I have gracefully matured into S Ruddertree. On the other hoof, you did give me the clear precise information that I had solicited. And rapidly also. Sose (I learned that word from youse) I guess I'll let the faux pas pass.

[1779] => Of course, way back in ancient times before I was S Rudderstick, there was a time when I was S Ruddershrub, then S Ruddersapling. Then there's the other side of the family *tree*, the Rubberbushes.

[1780] => I still have questions. What type welding electrode did you, or whomever, use to weld the die to the base plate? What type of metal was used for the die? [1781] =>

[1782] => Rutterbush - Wed 28 Nov 2007 20:31:00 #0 [1783] =>

Jeff Reinhardt , ELLEN [1784] =>

Three phase is available at the college of welding knowledge and I need to build another bend testing machine. E-mail me. Put *blacksmith* in the subject line.

[1785] => steverATblueridgeDOTedu

[1786] => ELLEN, thank you for the Titanic info. Steel, in fact, according to your info,was being produced back then. Even though the steel was prone to frigid water brittleness. [1787] =>

[1788] => John Larson - Wed 28 Nov 2007 20:48:31 #0 [1789] =>

[1790] =>

Another day of hitch building. Finished the second one, both were built from scratch. Two more hitches to do, but one may be simple. I'm beat from all the crawling under the trailers. The weather was superb, but three crews were working in "my" area and kept me alert. The circular saw manufacturer sent me a new overload switch free of charge. I installed it tonight. The saw ran. but I didn't test it under load. [1791] =>

[1792] => Rich Waugh - Wed 28 Nov 2007 20:57:59 #0 [1793] =>

Jeremy K - bronze patina [1794] =>


[1795] => That hasp is shown with just the patina resulting from the hot forging. I just posted a picture of one of the handles for the chest, which shows the final finish. The piece is buffed, then colored with Birchwood Casey's Brass Black solution and rinsed/dried. Following that, itis given a spritz with my special secret green patina formula for bopper and bronze. Once that has developed for a day, the piece is then buffed lightly to bring out the highlights and it's done.

[1796] => The top-secret formula for the patina is:

[1797] => 1-1/2 cups of ammonium hydroxide solution (Parson's Household Ammonia, the non-sudsy kind for choice)
[1798] => 2 cups of 6% acetic acid in water (okay, white vineagar, but that sounds so pedestrian when you say it that way)
[1799] => 1/2 cup of natural sodium chloride (sea salt or Kosher salt, to be plain)

[1800] => Mix it up and spritz it on and let sit in a humid area for a while. Repeat as desired. When used on the bronze after the Brass Black, you can use it diluted 50/50 with water.

[1801] => You are hereby sworn to more-or-less complete secrecy about this magical formula - you may only use it for either fun or profit, but not both at the same time, and you may share it with people you like and people you don't like, but don't share it with anyone I don't like. (grin)
[1802] => [1803] =>

[1804] => GlennM - Wed 28 Nov 2007 21:17:17 #0 [1805] =>

Speedier [1806] =>

Finally have got high speed internet.Man,can load the page in a second compared to minutes as it used to be.That means a new email addy Chuck.I will make sure you get it when I set it up. Same for you plain ole Bill.
[1807] => Thanks for the chat the other night plain ole Bill.I'm with you on seeing what the temp is any given time you need to tell though I still judge by eye and watch the shadows fade away from the steel.Lower temps and longer soak times have helped me with hamon work.I got my digital controller off Ebay.The probe I bought from Omega and its been a good one now for nearly three years.It is good to have a controller or pyrometer calibrated.I had mine set dead on at 1500 degrees and was off about 10 degree sitting at room temp.
[1808] => Needing more rain, maybe this weekend. [1809] =>

[1810] => Sandpile - Wed 28 Nov 2007 21:50:57 #0 [1811] =>

Speedier internet---Drought [1812] =>

GLENN--When we from the slow to what we have now(100.0Mbps) it was getting off a horse onto a motorcycle.

[1813] => We have been helping(prayers) you true southerners with your drought. Down there a few weeks is a bad deal but y'all have have had it all summer and fall.

[1814] => We had a dry spell in Mo. in '70' I think it was. It put us to piss-anting irrigation pipe. Had a four cylinder motor sucking water out of the river.

[1815] => The neighbors could not believe I was going to that much trouble(hay fields). They did not have any idea what my interest payments were. A banker might let you slide for a while on the principle but NOT THE INTEREST.GRIN

[1816] => chuck [1817] =>

[1818] => John Fe - Thu 29 Nov 2007 00:49:01 #0 [1819] =>

dies [1820] =>

S Ruddertree- The dies were made from 4140 and were 2"x2"x about 4", heated to around 1400º and quenched in water. Any thing smaller n 2"x2" wants to be quenched in oil. Then draw a temper at 400º for a couple hours. The above info is thankx to Gavin(sp).
[1821] => Then in Maine at The welding school I think(?) he tiged em on. In NY we just miged em on.
[1822] => And say hi to all the sticks n branch's for me :-) [1823] =>

[1824] => Gavainh - Thu 29 Nov 2007 01:01:58 #0 [1825] =>

Dies for Tire Hammers [1826] =>

S. Rutterbush, at the Tionesta , PA build this past July Clay used 4140 for the hammer dies. At that build, the dies were welded to the base plate and then heat treated. I'm not certain what he used for welding rod as I was busy in other areas working during that part of the build. Personally, I'd tend to go that way (weld, then heat treat)rather than weld the heat treated part and stress relieve, my gut feel is that it would give you a structure better able to withstand impacts over time by welding then heat treating. Of course, the only real way to tell is to do it both ways, run them on 2 hammers for the same cycles of duty, and then cut them apart and look at them under a metallograph :)

[1827] => Ellen - there used to be an article on the web detailing the failings of the wrought iron used in the Titanic as I remember there were some quality control issues with at least some of it. As to steel, the Bessemer converter had been in use for at least 30 some years at that point in and around Pittsburgh so you were starting to see some relatively low cost steel. ) Array ( )